What Not to Say to Someone Who Has Been Hurt By Church
It is no secret that this website has become a place where people who have had bad experiences in University Bible Fellowship gather to share their stories. But this website is open to all, and anyone is free to write or comment. Those who want to defend UBF are welcome to share their thoughts as well, and even though the exchanges can sometimes look ugly, there are times when grace and compassion and love and mutual understanding can break through.
An article appeared a few days ago in Relevant Magazine, titled What Not To Say To Someone Who Has Been Hurt By Church. The article is short, and I encourage everyone to read it. According to this article, the six things that should not be said are:
- “No church is perfect.”
- “Are you working toward reconciliation?”
- “I don’t want to gossip.”
- “What are non-believers going to think?”
- “Stop being so bitter.”
- “Is this worth dividing the church over?”
The author of this article has no apparent connection to UBF. He has no discernible anti-UBF bias. And he succinctly writes exactly what many of us have been trying to say to UBF leaders and members over and over.
Putting aside all discussion of UBF: Is this author correct?
To this list I would add
7. We are sorry that this happened to you, but people who are still in the church don’t believe that the problems are serious, because our experiences were not the same as yours.
8. Focus on your relationship with God and don’t be concerned with others.
9. But what is the condition of your heart?
10. Don’t be so sensitive / man up / soldier up / be a good soldier of Christ Jesus
11. Go back to the bible!
12. I don’t get involved in these kinds of problems. I just preach the gospel.
13. Once I had a problem just like yours. I went to God and solved my problem before God.
14. God is sovereign. Pray and trust your leaders.
15. You are WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG…
16, Ad hominems (you are so immature, you are such a typical Harvard graduate, …)
17. If we apologize you won’t be satisfied and you will just demand more
18. You are the kind of person who wouldn’t be happy or satisfied in any church
19. Go make your own church and be fruitful. Then we will listen to you.
20. Dr. Lee / Mother Barry once said, “_________”
21. Be patient.
22. (silence)
Hmmm.
What can we say?
Even though we say this, you will say no good.
And we say that, still you will say no good again.
How about, let’s obey God? Let’s pray? or let’s love each other? I don’t think it will work here.
How about, Let’s repent? Will that work maybe?
There are not many options here to talk if we are not anti-ubfers.
Only thing works here is that we agree with anti-ubfers’ opinions.
Actually, I have no idea what to say here.
Amazing!
Okay, whatever it is!
God is good all the time! All the time, God is good!
Mr. Kim, what strikes me as obvious, (though it wasn’t always obvious) is that people within UBF should just stop trying to say anything. Rather than trying to say the right thing, rebut, defend, instruct, edify, inform…there is only one thing to do, it is to listen. Is it possible for you to take the humble position of an active listener? This is a lot harder than one would think because it requires deeply entering into another’s perspective. Perhaps UBfriends people aren’t experts at this, and perhaps it is easier for us to join the conversation since we share so many experiences and can easily relate to each other. But the main thing we have in common is that we stopped needing to defend UBF and began to open our hearts and minds to each other, to ourselves, and to the larger body of Christ. When we talk with UBF people, I understand that they need to be heard too. But this cannot happen unless others stop letting UBF mediate our relationships and stop making a defense of UBF the objective. (Even Dr. Samuel Lee said repeatedly every friday night that “UBF is nothing” as I recall).
You may say that we have made tearing down UBF our objective. But I can tell you that I don’t think this is the case. UBfriends people are motivated to call out abuse and to listen to those who need to be heard. We may do it imperfectly. But that is our primary objective
23. We will pray for you no matter what
24. Follow and obey and God will bless you
25. If God’s servant “A” and God’s servant “B” do not bless you, God WILL NEVER BLESS YOU.
Sharon,
As you said, I was thinking about not talking at all here.
I thought that some of you could think and change attitude a little.
Looks like we are running two parallel lines.
Only destructive criticism will never work.
And I am not worrying about that you guys are tearing down ubf through dark scheme. As long as there are people who love God, God will never let it happen.
As long as people love God, God will not let UBF be torn down? Do we not love God? Those on this site are working a dark scheme? Is that what you said? Why is God so firmly on the side of UBF? In what way should attitudes be changed here? It seems that you are willfully ignoring that those trying to engage you here were all UBF people, for a very a long, and defended UBF to embarrassing extents. We have changed our attitudes–praise the Lord! Don’t we love God? God makes very clear that the is the one who remembers the fatherless, the poor, the widow, the foreigner, those who have been wronged–and that especially done by those who call themselves shepherds and servants.
It still floors me that MrKim has such a reaction to the posts prior to his.
The topic of the article is things people shouldn’t say to those who were hurt by the church.
Yet the very concept of his comment is that these things are in themselves, good things to say to people who have been hurt. That people should hear them and listen to them.
Yet this response is not surprising at all.
Great list everyone. Really shows how leaders, if they are out of touch and clueless, can easily steamroll and hurt people whom Jesus longs to minister to.
Also, the fact that this source came from someone not in UBF confirms my idea that the church in our time has the opportunity to confront the issue of abuse and find God’s mercy and leading, real healing. The Church must face this issue or they will suffer endlessly, not for Christ, but for their own wrong doing, according to 1 Peter 2. (the other part of 1 Peter 2, I mean).
After reading Mrkimmathclass’ response I would like to add something…
After most of the sexual, spiritual, psychological abuse had been revealed to about 3-4 leaders… my wife and I came up with some logical next steps… we suggested that:
1. We should bring these dark secrets to light and work out our issues with the congregation
2. We should repent for failing to make this church a safe and healthy place for children (since some leaders knew what was going on years before but hid this fact).
3. Let’s not just say we’re sorry let’s do something about the problems in our church – i.e. racism, the nationalism, the cultural problems, the rivalries and power hungry battles etc…
I was given these responses:
1. “It is the UBF way” basically the response was we (UBF leaders) will not reveal these things because admitting and revealing these things would damage UBF’s reputation.
2. “We are Korean missionaries you are the Spanish” — whatever that meant — I took it to mean [ don’t tell us (Koreans) what to do.]
3. It is their cross to carry (mentioning the abused children) and so no therapy or counseling was ever offered. As a matter of fact none of the sexually abused were offered any kind of help.
In order to be a Spiritually/Emotionally healthy and safe place these people shouldn’t just say they want it to be healthy and safe… they should do something about it.
Now that I look back… I really feel that there are genuine people in the UBF cult organization – however the UBF culture blinds its members from doing what is right in Gods eyes so instead they do what is right in UBF eyes. I know because I was just like Mrkimmathclass and I would even give similar responses.
Carlos,
I can say that there could be many people who were abused.
But at least you are not.
Rather, you abused people in ubf.
While you were in ubf, you are the one who were supported by the most of people in ubf. You are the one who rebuked our members because we were not actively engaged in preaching and helping people. When you wanted to rebuild our church environment, most of our members supported you.
But you left our ubf when you didn’t get the support from our leader fully. You are the one who lied and tried to bring division among people. About the sexual molestation, you exaggerated and lied because people didn’t try to solve the issue as you wanted. You cannot force people to listen to you and follow your way.
And because of that, you say ubf is in darkness and cult.
That is absurd.
I am the one who loved you and your family the most and expected you to do much greater things. But what you did was very evil and dark.
You should know that many people felt heart-broken and sad when your family left and confused.
26. I am the one who loved you and your family the most and expected you to do much greater things. But what you did was very evil and dark.
27. You should know that many people felt heart-broken and sad when your family left and confused
+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 x a gazillion!
Thanks for sharing this list Joe. Yes all of those, and your #7, are precisely the thought barriers I have been trying to break through, climb over or go around for many years. I used to be on the side that said such things. They are the essence of my “defense” of ubf ideology and lifestyle.
I think it would be helpful to create list of things you should say to someone who is in such a situation:
1. What flaws do you see in our church?
2. What can I change to work toward reconciliation?
3. I want to listen to you.
4. What do you think?
5. Tell me what caused you pain.
6. Who else in our church should we talk to?
Furthermore, this is the best discipleship material I’ve come across. Many of my ideas and thoughts stem from this excellent Christian training program that my wife and I went through:
VantagePoint3 – the Journey
Oh and this would be #7
7. We will eagerly fix this!
I haven’t heard anything good God has been done in your church.
Sometimes, positive feedback in other churches is very effective to help people like us because negative words bring only anger and hatred.
Oops.
You will think that I don’t want to hear your voice at all about bad experience. But that is not true, though. I have no idea how to discuss with you guys here.
What I just want to say is this, “God loves us. Jesus died for our sins. He said, “I love you.” He said I will be with you.” Jesus is only my strength and joy. I depend on Jesus alone. Jesus is my shepherd and my reward. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for he is with me.
I will not be afraid of anything because God promised that He will be with me and He know that I love Him.
“I haven’t heard anything good God has been done in your church.”
My church has gathered 2,000 people for amazing worship every Sunday. My church has partnered with 2 other churches and non-profit orgs to build a clinic on our campus. My church collects food/etc for the poor every month. My church has a vibrant divorce care ministry. My church partners with over 100 organizations to participate in world mission, including campus ministry with CRU. My church hosted a satellite viewing of the 2013 WCA conference.
And yet I had so many trauma triggers from ubf that I could not attend this wonderful Christian church the past 2 years.
But after worshipping and praying with Matthew Vines in Washington D.C. a couple weeks ago, I was inspired to love the church again.
On and like I just wrote above, “Many of my ideas and thoughts stem from this excellent Christian training program that my wife and I went through: VantagePoint3 – the Journey” which was, of course, at my church.
Brian,
It sounds that your church is good. But if you participate in the church, it will be much better.
Many people like the big church because they don’t know who you are when you don’t participate.
They will love you more if you add more positive energy and love for the good work they are doing.
Not because of work but because of good fellowship, I mean.
And I hope you can teach us how they are doing such as how they have fellowship or show love, how they worship and praise, how they preach and help new Christians.
mrkim,
“And I hope you can teach us…”
Now THAT is funny. I’ll get back to you 20 years from now.
mrkim,
I find it difficult to believe you are not just joking around.
“Many people like the big church because they don’t know who you are when you don’t participate…”
Have you been to a big church? Not all of them are so “bad and nominal”. My church got big because they know each and every person. They give everyone the freedom to be as anonymous as each person wants. I have not attended church service on Sunday in 2 years. But guess what? They consider me an equal brother in Christ. They know me. And the pastor just responded to my email within 1 day!
The size of the church means nothing about about how personal or how well they know people. ubf is very very very small. I often felt so invisible at ubf. If I was not part of whatever activity was going on, they couldn’t care less about me. But when I did participate, I was nearly worshipped for my excellent obedience.
Oh yeah, and the #1 thought on ubfers’ minds is: Why don’t they study the bible?
Well my church has bible study. We have 70+ cell groups that study every week and 10 different cross-cutting bible study groups that study 10 different studies all at once, meeting throughout the week.
On various Sundays we have a listening room time where people go to learn how to be silent and listen to the still voice of God through the Holy Spirit.
My church joins with Christians everywhere through Communion and Baptism regularly. And there are baptism classes, leadership classes, children’s programs from kindergarten up to high school (and ALL different).
Brian,
It seems that you have difficulty of understanding.
I didn’t say that big churches are bad. What I said was that many people go to big church when they don’t want to be involve deeper. Why don’t I know that big churches are good. Don’t misunderstand. Get to the point. Don’t try to argue every single word I say. Read the article Joe posted. Be a good listener.
And further along the lines of “what we should be saying” to someone damaged by the flawed discipleship at ubf are things that would point us to healthy Christian discipleship.
For example, I fully agree with the The Eastbourne Consultation Joint Statement on Discipleship. Here is a sample:
“Definition of Discipleship: While there are valid differences of perspective on what constitutes discipleship, we define Christian discipleship as a process that takes place within accountable relationships over a period of time for the purpose of bringing believers to spiritual maturity in Christ. Biblical examples suggest that discipleship is both relational and intentional, both a position and a process. We become disciples by turning from sin through repentance and turning to God through faith. The process of discipleship is played out in a vital life-giving relationship to God that enables us to walk in the light as He is in the light, and do the will of the Father (1 John 1:7; John 4:34). Jesus said if we hold to His teaching, then we are really His disciples (John 8:31), and we demonstrate this through loving one another (John 13:34-35).”
After going through the ubf idea of discipleship, it can take many years for someone to heal enough to actually find their way to Christian discipleship. I hope the differences between ubf KOPAHN shepherding and the Eastbourne Statement of Discipleship are clear. For the ubf mind, the differences are blurry, I know. But to the mind set free by the Holy Spirit, the difference is astoundingly and abundantly crystal clear.
I was taught what a disciple training is and how to train disciples as a shepherd. That was the only identity I was given…a shepardess… Without acknowledging any other God s given gifts, I m supposed to follow blindly this idea of a shepherding. An idea that I now believe is highly dangerous. really what it comes down to isn’t controlling a person, but praying for someone to have God s will revealed in their lives. I realized that after 10 yrs of training I too began thinking that I should disciple sheep into what I believed was God s will for them…but wow how dangerous this is!!! I am a human being. How can I know God s will for anyone? I personally believe that this is one of the main issues here…how can a person tell another whom to marry? Is god directly speaking through them? How sinful it is to actually lead a person astray ? This happened to me when I advised a friend of mine to take action on a life changing decision that was in fact my own will and not God s. Since then, I realized how abusive I was and how I was playing out the training that has been done to me also . Discipleship in Jesus is love for one another …it is following Christ and praying for His spirit to lead us. May God have mercy on us in UBF.
“That was the only identity I was given”
Yes, that is THE problem. Just after resigning from ubf and closing down our chapter, I emailed the pastor at a church we were considering attending. I was so used to not hearing back from ubf people for months on end that I was floored when his administrative assistant replied back within about 2 days of my email. She then proceeded to make an appointment. In less than 3 weeks I was having lunch at a bar with this pastor.
He insisted on paying for lunch and listened to my heart. His three main comments were these:
1) ubf sounds like a cult
2) ubf is so small why do they think they have so much influence?
3) the ubf “shepherd” identity may be ok (I don’t know) but that identity cannot be imposed on everyone. It certainly was not a right fit for you.
Thus my journey of recovery from ubf began. It is that “personal identity” issue that we wrestle with. I now find that children’s movies and music is most helpful such as this:
It’s MY life
My apologies Joe if I moved this discussion in a way contrary to what you intended. There are just some fantastic threads coming together in my life right now! I am so excited and want to share what I’m learning.
Identity should come from God, not from people and their assumptions. I do think that the idea of being a shepherd is a beautiful and noble one , however…it is just an idea.
God uses each of us differently and we all have our own special gifts. We are molded into Jesus Image not to the image of a system. Unfortunately, that is what is happening . I hear day in day out that Jesus is he image we are molded into…but then I look around and see all the tired worn out faces of our chapter people, their children, and then of course the confused and bored looks of the few students that do attend the services. I say few…3 in total.
And then I look at those few, and see how eager they are to learn Jesus. Then a few months pass , a year or two…and they lose something. They lose that innocent simple childlike faith…and begin writing elaborate shepherd driven testimonies. And I might ask. Who are these testimonies written for? Aren’t they supposed to be an earnest confession to Jesus? In some way I do believe that is the intention. But intention does not equal truth. The testimonies are almost identical and empty it seems. I hear Jesus name in them…but there is something missing…practical earnest examples and Holy Spirit. That is where it gets almost overwhelming. And then as I experienced countless times…to write a reflection/ testimony from my heart and to have it corrected by my shepherd. She actually pointed out that my testimony needs this and that…isn’t it personal to me??? Isn’t it before God??? When will people stop speaking faith with their lips and continue t have hardened hearts?
I bet as long as the shepherding identity continues, this will continue. How sad, h absolutely heart breaking.
Sadly, yellowblossom, the testimony in UBF is formula writing. In the beginning you can write a more free style testimony, especially, if your first UBF experience was at a conference. However, if you are a regular student who slowly did this and that…the first testimony and subsequent one’s may be altered by your shepherd. I will say there could be two cases (and more): maybe you were too personal and too honest, you can leave out some things for public sharing or maybe, you did not write close enough to the passage with repentance and application on how you can be a better, more compassionate shepherd for students.
Slowly, the testimony form becomes really about your shepherd identity and no longer about you as a child of God or even as a human being. Your sole purpose is to be a shepherd. Maybe, Sharon or even another woman should jump in to say more.
For men, the testimony is a spring board for message writing. Once you master the UBF formula testimony, then eventually you will receive more and more message training. In fact, beware of wolves who masquerade and deceive students that they reinvented the testimony and message process. The king is naked! He has no clothes!
For a short read, it is a very good summary of what not to say.
In my experiences those comments and others always place the burden on the shoulders of the abused. In fact, early on it is critical to speak up while the incident is still fresh. If you bring up abuses when it is too late it leads to even worse remarks or perceptions about you.
I think my number one most hated remark for any wounds I suffered in my first year at UBF goes something like this:
“You are still suffering from something that happened years ago. You need to forgive. You need to receive Jesus newly…”
I am paraphrasing of course, because, I actually have not deeply discussed anything about the incidents of my first year with UBF leaders since about 2006-2007. I cannot remember now. What I can remember, however, is the insensitive handling of things that did happen and the clear indifference from anyone who I shared with. Of course, people listened at the time. But, no one made a move to do anything. In fact, it quickly became apparent that this is all just part of the social fabric of UBF. Like it or leave it. Do you want to grow spiritually? Good, now move on, study the Bible, repent and focus on Jesus!
Raising issues when they are fresh are received as the author states and once enough time has passed the situation appears to have completely become the sole problem of the abused. In almost every case most senior leaders will support their buddy. They will not listen to the new comer if it sounds like complaining.
I have read the ongoing comments and have refrained from jumping in this time. I have made a new decision to be silent and read and take it all in. Also, I am in a different time zone altogether and cannot always engage in the time that people are writing. But, it is nice to see new articles coming.
I am also happy to see new contributors coming online. Thank you yellowblossom.
“In my experiences those comments and others always place the burden on the shoulders of the abused”
Yes, my experience proves the same. I would start with just have the decency and respect to acknowledge someone else’s pain. Whatever good intentions or experiences of a person or organization, if another person says that they’ve been hurt, at the very least begin by acknowledging their hurt and listening to them.
I would say to cross out the words “the church” in the title and consider, “What Not to Say to Someone Who Has Been Hurt.” See the other person as a human being who has been wronged or pained. Have concern and compassion, although you may lack understanding as to where they’re coming from or even if you think they should not be pained.
mrkim,
“I have no idea what to say here.”
THAT is your best comment yet. If you look at my comment above, I gave you 7 things you might want to say.
I just realized that I should praise God no matter what.
Whenever I read what you guys wrote and debate, I feel like my spirit also become dark together. That is why many mature people don’t write here and only immature people like me come and be hooked out of curiosity.
By the way, I decided to finish with Praise of God no matter what.
God is good!!
All the time!!
Yes, God is good.
James, I have a question for you. This is not a trick question. I’m not asking this to accuse you or criticize you. I’m asking you as a brother in Christ, because I care about you and need to know you better and understand you better, because communication between us has not been going well. I hope you won’t get upset that I ask you this.
Do you think you are a good listener?
More specifically: Do you believe that you have truly listened to what people on this website have been saying?
Joe,
I believe that I am a good listner.
How about you?
I write here also what I feel like writing because I think I have to after reading whay you guys write.
And I believe that I am the true friend of ubf while you guys are not. You guys don’t like opposing opinion.
But I think that you need to listen to how we think too.
Don’t you think so?
Thanks for answering my question.
For most of my life, I thought that I was a good listener. But then I was rudely awakened to the fact that I wasn’t. My wife tells that story in a comment on this article:
http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/07/listeners-are-born-then-unmade/
I hope you can read it and tell me what you think.
Brian,
As ubfriends, that kind of posts and articles will be better.
But, if you guys do positive work, not many people will see. Right?
My impression anout this website is like gossiping site.
You know what I mean. People do gossip even though they know it is not good. You feel good somehow when you gossip.
Joe,
I should say that that article is great.
And based on the article, all of us are not good listeners.
“You feel good somehow when you gossip.”
No, not really. When I start to gossip or a gossip thought comes to my mind, the Holy Spirit convicts me of this sin. I don’t feel good when I actually do gossip either. I repent and make more of an effort to stop doing this.
The Holy Spirit helps restrain me from gossiping, and quite a few other things. Like right now the Holy Spirit is restraining me from banning you from this website mrkim.
mrkim,
“But I think that you need to listen to how we think too.
Don’t you think so?”
No I don’t think so. Why? Well because I listened to your way of thinking for 24 years. Where did that get me? I became a world class folding chair sitter.
The topic of being a good listener as a way of service is very difficult, especially on an online forum. I find myself struggling to decide to post or not on certain things. If I were to evaluate myself, I would say there are times in my life where I am a really bad listener. By this I mean that I simply don’t hear the person’s heart and sense, behind the words. I see this often at work. Communication problems often come when people don’t have the intention of really understanding what the other person thinks.
What I really enjoyed reading in one of the past threads, was where a commenter (Joe Schafer) talked about holiness not primarily about being good, “righteous”, mistake-free, but rather it is a relational, differences-penetrating characteristic/quality in a person. I wish I could explore more of this.
Joe, I really liked this article. I found this quote particularly kairotic.
“One of the most effective ways to silence a [spiritual abuse] victim is to fill them with a false sense of guilt. The victim is led to believe that talking is only going to make things worse, and whatever happens as a result is their fault.
Certainly, exposing spiritual abuse can divide a congregation. But that’s not a consequence of the victim talking. It’s a consequence of the abuse perpetrated in the first place.”
Mary, it’s so good to hear from you.
Wonderful word: kariotic.
Ben Toh, take note!
As a person with horrible timing, I don’t seem to be able to know how to do that!
“kairotic” Great another word I have to look up! I was excited for a moment there…but I don’t think this word means what I first thought :)
This is an appropriate comment from the original article, which more or less is sharing and experiencing what many on ubfriends have been saying repeatedly:
I, too, experienced spiritual abuse. I followed the Matthew 18 guideline in how to deal with a brother in sin and was met with a refusal to acknowledge or take responsibility for personal sin.
Since it was with a pastor and there was an attitude among the leaders that pastors are God’s annointed and should be protected, the other leaders refused to hold him accountable. Therefore, the way they chose to deal with the situation was to make the victim the problem. What followed were incredibly hurtful meetings. After 30 years there (many in leadership), my husband and I quietly left. Without explanation so as not be divisive. Four years later, I am still unable to attend another church.
When spiritual authority that is charged by scripture to love, protect and care for the flock instead uses its authority for selfish reasons and covers sin, the affect on the victim is devastating.
Church members have a right expectation to be treated fairly and lovingly. When instead they are abused, there is confusion, resentment and, most of all, a loss of trust that naturally follows.
Spiritual abuse is real and a serious problem. What makes it worse is church members refusing to consider that something this serious is happening in their midst and their leaders are behaving as humans (sinners) who need to be held accountable. Only when the church is willing to get involved and recognize and confront sin will this problem begin to resolve.
Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/church/what-not-say-someone-who-has-been-hurt-church#21tMKvKBvLmh6Z21.99
Simply because you don’t understand or haven’t experienced the pain of others does not invalidate their pain nor give cause to fight against those who have spoken up either on their own behalf or someone else’s.
I believe Mrkim’s opinion is very important to ubfriends.
He is new to this site.
He is a current member of ubf.
He is not in the top leadership.
He has followed and trusted ubf leadership.
He may not know or believe all the secret things done by ubf leadership.
He might be busy feeding his sheep, attending many meetings, preparing bible studies and worshp service, and supporting his family by hard works. He has no time for or interest in any other areas other than what he is focusing right now.
He represents many other devoted missionaries and shepherds around world who still have not read this site carefully.
So Brian (This is my opinion to you as Mrkim commented me to teach you too. Btw I am not teaching anyone)
Would you be more patient, kind and gentle to Mrkim? I know you can do better. Show us practically how to communicate online in biblical manner since you have learned more from other resource.
I know you mean well. And I hope you can see that Brian has been trying. What you ask is very difficult, and one person cannot do it alone. He needs the cooperation of mrkim (which, for the reasons you pointed out, is something that mrkim may be unable to give right now) and the help of other UBFriends readers such as yourself. What you are asking from Brian might be literally impossible. Not even the Apostle Paul, not even the sinless Son of God, were able to keep conversations with people around them from spinning out of control. Each of us has some ideal, some mental prototype, for what good and healthy communication looks like, and I think we all sense that the interactions on this website fall short of ideal. I believe we would all like to see the climate improve. But how do we get there? That is the million dollar question. Many people have offered ideas (usually involving some sort of censorship) but once we do that, we are essentially shutting people up the way that UBF does. What happens on this website is closely tied up with what goes on in UBF, which none of us can control. I don’t believe it is fair to place the burden on Brian or any ex-ubf member to make this happen; that would be very close to item #2 in the list of What Not to Say to Someone Who has Been Hurt by Church.
“Would you be more patient, kind and gentle to Mrkim?”
vmi, I have a magical word for just this kind of question: bullshit.
I am not a savior. I cannot fix the ubf fustercluck. Sorry. Look elsewhere if you want a better example. It’s not my job to teach ubf how to be better.
You know what? That is exactly the kind of cowardly thinking that got us in this mess the past 50+ years. I really see more and more clearly that it was the example of ex-ubf people that enabled the ubf system to keep going. ubf remains not because God spared them but because people keep enabling them. Both “in” and “out” of ubf, people keep enabling the ubf system. Well not me.
When someone comes out of the closet, they are often held to an impossible standard of perfection by Christians. Gay people many times cannot cope and commit suicide.
When someone comes out of ubf, they are also held to an impossible standard of perfection. We are told “Be a good exmaple of Christ” and “Teach us how to be a Christian church” and “You better be the best Christian ever if you leave ubf”.
All I have to say to that is have a nice day X-(
Joe and Brian
You are right. I did say item #2 to the hurt.
I am so sorry for that.
Actually I was tempted to speak like Brian to Mrkim because Mrkim’s comments reminded me the abusive ubf leader who had expelled me out of ubf. My blood was boiled again.
But recently, I try to care for my lips because Jesus standing beside me watches how I treat others, even to the one who hurt me.
That is my personal struggle.
I have to admit that I didn’t treat Brian well to care for my selfish concern.
Again my apology. I am learning this. You guys taught me a good lesson.
vmi, thank you. For the record, I have said all of the things mentioned in the original article (#1-#6) and more to critics and ex-members of UBF, without realizing how bad it was to say such things. I believe you meant well. We all have a lot to learn.
How ironic. Joe posts an article about “what not to say” and ubf people comment “what not to say” and demand that we listen to “what not to say”.
I won’t try to advise anyone on what to say or how to say it. I just want to think out loud.
Jesus told his followers to respond to criticism and abuse with kindness and to turn the other cheek when someone strikes you. Is this a rule that is supposed to be followed by all Christians at all times? It seems to me that the answer must be no. Aren’t there times and places for us to show that we have been hurt and mistreated and stand up to bullying, especially in the context of the church? If not, aren’t we enabling bad behavior and failing to allow the church to purify itself? If one part of a body is hurt, shouldn’t it somehow send a signal of pain to the other parts? Failing to do so can prevent the body from healing and eventually be fatal. And when a signal of pain is being sent, should it be sugar-coated and cloaked in pseudo-kindness? If so, then wouldn’t that give a misleading impression that the pain and hurt aren’t serious and it isn’t a big deal after all?
I don’t know what mrkim’s intentions are. Perhaps he doesn’t even know. One of his motives may be to try to convince Brian and Ben and me that UBF isn’t so bad, that the abuse is exaggerated and we should stop saying negative things. If so, he hasn’t been able to do that very well. If he can’t do that, maybe he wants to elicit a sharp reaction from Brian to somehow “prove” that Brian is ungodly and bitter. If so, then Brian may have shown him kindness by giving him what he wanted.
“Aren’t there times and places for us to show that we have been hurt and mistreated and stand up to bullying, especially in the context of the church?”
Well, in Galatians 5:12, Paul essentially told the abusive Judaiazers to cut off their wieners, so there’s that… :/
That’s one of my favorite Bible verses, David! :) Paul, who may be many UBF leader’s hero, did two other things that UBF leaders would not approve of or would even rebuke you for doing:
1) Paul cursed some older senior church leaders for not teaching the gospel…twice in two verses (Gal 1:8-9).
2) Paul, a junior leader openly and publicly rebuked his senior leader Peter, and then wrote an open letter for everyone in church to know about it (Gal 2:11-14).
Paul violated Jesus’ clear teaching in Matthew 18 and he spread too many gossips. Don’t listen to Paul. He’s a bad influence.
As a current member of UBF, on the verge of leaving , it is hard to read these comments sometimes and often I just want to hide into my protective shell again and say…UBF is great, I learned Jesus here, My life was changed there to know Christ. All these are true…however. There is a huge however. The system in which I learned about Jesus my Lord, is inexcusably narrow minded and corrupt in structure. Yes, let’s go to the Bible, yes Jesus is my savior. But to experience the grace of the gospel is to experience freedom. There is NO freedom of mind, spirit, or personal struggle with the word of God in this system. My dear friend who is not in UBF has been hurt because of my so called shepherding to her. Do I have an excuse? Can I just brush her off easily and say that it’s ok God will take care of it? Should I not take responsibility for leading her astray? The answer is no.
So I guess what my point is, having all this online discussion is crucial. Hopefully more UBF members will read and make some changes. We need to change. Or leave.
This ongoing dialogue is getting a little too comical now. The pro-UBFers want the bashing to stop and not only demand people to listen more, but refuse to dignify, respond and clarify any of the issues addressed. They write many comments off as gossip and therefore undermine actual testimonial accounts of abuse that went on. Moreover, they keep coming back here to check in and see the mess that has been made by their comments. Anonymous must really be chuckling by now…
As for all the contributors here, I believe we do listen. I know we bash at times. But, I beg the question, why should anyone who has left be soft towards UBF? When they invested themselves into UBF, they eventually found grounds enough to leave and it was painful. Anyone, who has left should be free to be honest about their experience.
The military state culture that can be felt when you are around senior members is anything but Christ-like. I know younger members are livening it up a little and trying new things etc…but whenever there is a move forward like that, why do senior members, who are out numbered by their own kids, command more influence?
I want to listen to happypinky, Mr. Kim and anyone else who chooses to come here. What about Terry or Wesley or others?
But, I do beg each person to be honest and clarify practices they experienced, witnessed or personally carried out. If it is questionable for a church and Christian, let’s hear it. Saying “Wrong” is not an answer.
Here are some questions? Is it failure if all Korean missionaries eventually lose all of their native sheep in a given country? If in fact students quit, who takes the responsibility? The Bible teacher or the student or both? Is personal calling even addressed? Is there honest reflection as to why most UBF chapters are predominantly Korean even after all these years? (Don’t just say people ran away or lost their faith! There has to be a more constructive answer!)
Listen, don’t listen. Read, don’t read. Appreciate, don’t appreciate. It is not worth getting into loggerheads about these issues, when most of us know that the morale in UBF is actually very low among members who are just there.
What can I say? Let the students decide. Do they want long term Bible study? Do they want to in turn grow as a Bible teacher? Do they want to remain in UBF or has God called them somewhere else?
Treat them badly and they will leave, plain and simple. Treat them badly, well…they can come here and find all the gory and personal accounts from parts of the USA and Canada. From India, Russia, Ukraine and Germany and so many other countries. They can even find reports of the various reform movements if they want.
If there are healthy UBF chapters with students who voluntarily remain out of service to Jesus – Excellent! However, if students remain out of some personal sense of obligation to a shepherd than it won’t last much longer at all.
Sorry for the long round about dialogue and questioning, but I would rather see no activity than to keep going in circles. Brian is bitter….yes, well Joe wrote about that a couple of years ago…do your homework and look for it…I won’t post the link.
gc, your comment stirred up memories of the many break-up songs I listened to while leaving ubf.
For example: Solo and Over you
In psychological terms it is called a co-dependent relationship. KOPAHN is sustained by the co-dependent shepherd/sheep relationships. It is the yin/yang phenomenon. ubf needs exubf and exubf needs ubf. If there is a goal I have it would be to melt away this co-dependency.
When I was on the brink of leaving (in fact, I did leave my home chapter) the popular song that I heard again and again at that time was Don’t call me baby. For me, it summed up my feelings perfectly.
Why can’t people be codependent on Jesus? Ironic isn’t it?
It’s so interesting how peoples’ online presence is drastically different from their personality in real life. Someone noted that Dr. Ben talks much milder face-to-face than online. I can say the same for Brian Karcher. Online forums miss so much of the communication. We read each others’ written comments, but don’t see their facial expressions or tones, so we can’t tell if the comments are sincere or sarcastic. It’s be cool if there was a way to actually talk face to face. I’d like to talk with happy pinky and mr.kim’s math class.
A friend of mine actually discovered this article and told me about it and read it to me over the phone (I assume it’s the same as the one posted here).
One thing to point out which my friend told me: 3) I don’t want to gossip. Whether from the perspective of you yourself, or your peer whom you’re talking to, there is a sense that talking about these issues that have happened to is really not gossip. That means it is really right for us to be expressing ourselves here. We shouldn’t feel guilty or condemned that we are making these issues in our heart known – it’s not gossip. It is right and necessary.
And not all anger is just “complaining and bitterness”. There is such thing as righteous anger.
mrkimmathclass wrote:
“About the sexual molestation, you exaggerated and lied because people didn’t try to solve the issue as you wanted. You cannot force people to listen to you and follow your way. And because of that, you say ubf is in darkness and cult. That is absurd.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18515
I hope that the authorities were contacted to investigate the allegations of molestation. Does mrkim’s comment imply that there was a less exaggerated, acceptable molestation? Awful.
mrkimmathclass further wrote:
“I am the one who loved you and your family the most and expected you to do much greater things. But what you did was very evil and dark. You should know that many people felt heart-broken and sad when your family left and confused.”
Again, awful. What exactly where these expectations you had? What might be these “much greater things”? His justice was not enough it seems.
This is the same old rhetoric I’ve heard from other Korean missionaries to make people feel guilty and to fall back in line. I find such words to be manipulative and lack any empathy for those who have been hurt.
Thank you Charles, unfortunately MrKim is a “troll” who goes around trying to defend UBF whenever he reads an article online that says the slightest thing against UBF I know this because I considered MrKim one of my closest friends and he would often talk about BrianK for some reason. I thought we were real friend (Mrkim and I) I counted on him after I left to uncover the rest of the darkness that I began to uncover in order to bring peace and light to that situation. However, when “I failed to meet UBF expectations” I became the enemy I couldn’t believe how fast people turned on me and my family.
— “the sexual molestation was exaggerated” I would like to ask, were you the one speaking to the victims? have you spoken to the victims? How about this… did you speak to the older brother who was forced to give oral sex for about 4 years? Oh wait you can’t ask that because his father is a church leader and a “godly man”.
— Was that story made up by me? and did we imagine the conversation we had with that young man? I was not the only person who knew this I wasn’t the only person he spoke to. Please prove me wrong and ask him or ask his father yourself.
It’s difficult to show everyone the evidence we have (on video, and writing) because we are in a bind — BrianK BenT and some others know the reason. I am grateful for this community and can say that I am in a healthy church and the only expectation is that I have a relationship with Christ. God bless you all!
John 1:5 “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”
Carlos,
I tried to figure out the truth when I was very close to you. The more I figure out, the clearer that you did this because you were not fully supported and you didn’t like the way other people handle the matter. You didn’t rrrspect
Carlos,
I tried to figure out the truth when I was very close to you. The more I figure out, the clearer that you did this because you were not fully supported and you didn’t like the way other people handle the matter. You didn’t respect different opinions. And you say that church is in darkness and cult. It is very convenient for you to say so.
And no matter what I say, I know what would be the response here.
Hold on a minute, mrkimmatchlass. You mentioned this: “About the sexual molestation, you exaggerated and lied because people didn’t try to solve the issue as you wanted. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18514
Do you realize we are in America? Do you realize we have mandatory reporting laws for such abuse?
If a clergy person knows about such a thing, the law requires reporting the incident to the authorities.
As the admin of this website, I am going to look into whether or not I have to report this to the police.
“About the sexual molestation, you exaggerated and lied…” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18519
Mr. Kim probably has no idea what he just did. He virtually acknowledged that the sexual molestation DID HAPPEN!!! He apparently just does not like the fact that it is being exposed for what it is. Thus, in his opinion, Carlos “exaggerated and lied.”
Ben,
Does it make you happy?
I thought that at least you judge things fairly and thoughtfully. But it shows that you are not differenr from others here.You don’t care about the truth but just happy to find something bad against ubf.
I am sure that Ben Toh needs no help defending himself, but allow me to point out that the person who is the best judge of things is the one who it concerns. In this case it is the man himself- which you are saying exaggerated- which is a judgement. Since you are saying “fairly” I ask by whose standard you are judging- because God’s standard is very clear
“But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.” Ephesians 5:3
By saying that he is “exaggerating” Ben is just point out that you are admitting it happened (exaggeration requires an object to be exaggerated), and since it happened, even if it is small it needs to be taken with a high level of seriousness because the Bible commands it so. You also also judging Ben to be unfair- which is again a problem when then you then turn around and say not to judge. I believe this is the special pleading fallacy.
Thanks, forests, This quote, which I posted 4 years ago, explains why some “ubf defenders” act the way they do: https://www.facebook.com/ben.toh.9/posts/10150198661514490
“It is natural, when under criticism, to shield your heart from pain by belittling the critics in your mind. ‘You stupid idiots.’” …or pig, or demon, or Satan, or bitter, or “it shows that you are no different from others here!”
You should add sneaky fox too.
Mr. Kim, as I’ve said before, I believe that you are a truly genuine Christian who loves Jesus and the gospel. But you are likely not very aware that your sentiments are strongly shaped by your culture that is rooted in Asian, eastern values that are strongly influenced by Confucius, which is to be expected. Thus, like many UBF missionaries, if I may be so bold to say so, you have the following strong sentiments shaped by your cultural roots:
1) You are very loyal and committed to your leader(s) and to your church. Thus, you get quite offended when anyone dares to bring up some wrongdoing related to your leader(s) or your church. Thus, you labelled Carlos with unnecessary and uncalled for ad hominems and guilt trips, which is not loving or gracious Christian behavior.
2) You strongly believe that non-leaders should not critique, question and challenge leaders. So you strongly disagree with and dislike UBFriends because people here are willing to speak up regarding matters that they can not address in UBF without facing some form of negative reactions and repercussions.
3) You believe that trusting God means that the primary work of UBFers is to “preach the gospel and raise disciples,” and NOT address problems or interfere with how UBF is run by a top tier of leaders, even when some of their practices and decisions may be abusive, authoritarian, questionable, disrespectful, condescending, rude, intrusive, overbearing and unaccountable.
4) You believe that people in UBF should only talk about “good things,” and not bring up problems, especially publicly, even though the Bible is a most public book that primarily brings up and addresses in explicit detail the sins and problems of God’s “chosen” people (the Jews in the OT and Christians in the NT).
5) Leaders and others in UBF who sin should be treated differently. When any UBF leader sins, we should “just pray and trust God and do God’s work and let God deal with them.” But when UBFreinds sinners question the sin of leaders, they are pig, bitter, wounded, angry, unthankful, Satan, devil, sneaky sinners, etc.
6) You expect grace to be extended to UBF and to her leaders but truth to everyone else, especially to those on UBFriends.
7) Along with grace to leaders, one should also extend to them mercy, forgiveness, kindness, patience, tolerance, which is actually very good and wonderful. But to those who critique UBF, you expect along with truth, perfection, absolute correctness, and perfectly correct and right tone of voice and writing.
8) In other words, you seem to be very lenient with UBF and her leaders, but very very strict with everyone else, which is good for everyone else. The problem is your double standard.
Ben,
You shouldn’t manipulate. You know how to judge people without using bad words. But tour judgments are very wrong. Especially you are very partial, praising people who are against ubf and mocking people who are against anti-ubf.
Not tour but your.
It seems that you don’t care about the truth. Whoever just stands up aganist ubf, you are happy to praise them. You don’t need to bother to figure out if the person is saying true or false. Only encourage them to say against ubf.
Ben wrote:
“Mr. Kim, as I’ve said before, I believe that you are a truly genuine Christian who loves Jesus and the gospel. But you are likely not very aware that your sentiments are strongly shaped by your culture that is rooted in Asian, eastern values – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18538
The 8 points that Ben made about Korean missionaries’ cultural values are certainly a factor. But there is a long specific history within UBF of rationalizing and overlooking the bad behavior of leaders. Those who brought allegations against leaders have not been taken seriously, but criticized and attacked as MrKim has illustrated. Whatever doubts MrKim may have had over the years about the integrity of UBF leaders had to be ignored and suppressed as a mechanism of survival, because without this he could never have remained in the organization.
For example, take the big scandal that hit Anam UBF in the late 1990s that involved allegations of misconduct by a leader and a subsequent coverup, including the payment of hush money to a staff intern to make her go away. That leader was close to MrKim. Many (a majority?) from Anam left UBF in the wake of this scandal. It must have been a very traumatic event for MrKim. It forced him to choose sides. Those who chose to remain in UBF developed defensive mechanisms to suppress their doubts and fears and rationalize their decision. Perhaps they decided that sexual misbehavior isn’t such a big deal when it happens inside the church. Perhaps they decided that anyone who ever raises questions about UBF leaders is motivated by hatred, pride, and other ulterior motives. They became desensitized to scandal and apparently no longer care whether their organization has credibility or holiness. Now they just dodge and deny.
Joseph,
You talk about sexual misbehavior.
The happening in Anam center you mentioned, I have no clue. What I heard was tapping on her back and the husband complained. That is all I know.
For New York, I came to know sure.
Still, I am not sure of the exact definition of sexual molestation. The level of misbehavior was not as serious as to call the police. Since the girl was in shock, she has been treated properly by many people including professional counsellor. Again, the church didn’t cover it up. They had meeting and talked to people who are involved and dealt with the offender accordingly.
But Carlos and his wife were not satisfied not because of that issue but because of other issue. I know for sure that they didn’t like the leadership since they were not fully supported. Though, they got tremendous support from the majority of people including me. They kept challenging the leadership to get what they want and it was very selfish and proud behavior. They cannot do everything as they want to. They also need to listen to other people’s opinions. But when they didn’t get it, they kept trying to bring division among members.
If I need to, I can give many examples of their lies though I don’t want to.
My first impression of Carlos was the miniature of Apostle Paul. He was excellent in talking but I realized that most of them were exaggerations and lies. I regret that I supported him with all my possible energy sometimes I had to stand up our leader. But, later I realized that I was wrong.
It reminds me of a man in Anam center long time ago. For many years, nobody knew that he was not a student. He deceived everybody by saying that he was a student of Korea University and even attended classes. He lied about all his life to make up big dramatic story for many years. Later, he stole offering money and roommates’ credit card and money and ran away.
Weird story? But it is true.
Many people lie to get attention. And that is what I saw in NY too. I am not sure how many people were abused in ubf. I am sure there would be many. However I am not sure which is true and which one is lie. At least I am sure what I saw with my own eyes.
One case I am sure but that case iss full of lies.
“The level of misbehavior was not as serious as to call the police. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18543
According to whom? In your system of justice, who gets to decide this?
Brian,
Could you remove the post I wrote just now?
I didn’t want to come this far but did.
I didn’t want to touch too personal matters but I couldn’t stop when I heard offensive words against me. I hope you can take it off as soon as possible. And I don’t want to be involved in this dirty fight any longer.
mrkim,
We do not delete comments here, generally speaking. If some other admin feels compelled to remove your comment they can do so, but I will not.
It sounds like you have a lot to discuss in your chapter. I hope you all are talking on a daily basis and figuring out how to address these things.
mrkim you wrote this: “For New York, I came to know sure.” Then American laws require you to report this to the police. If not, the law says you will go to jail for not reporting the abuse, unless you get a good lawyer and can find a loophole in the law.
Joe,
We don’t depend on the system all the time.
Are you going to obey the laws when it is eveb against God? Sometimes, you need to think of many things and situation together. You don’t go to the system blindlessly. Goverment doesn’t solve all your problems or issues. Government is not your God. It doesn’t mean that we ignore our system.
I am just astonished and sickened by your words – many of us realize that your god is UBF and I pray to the one true God that your daughter never reads or finds out about your words, attitude or what you say in secret MrKim.
At first MrKim mentions — Ben Toh is “sneaky fox” and then you say ” you shouldn’t “manipulate”.
Just to give everyone a clue on who James D. Kim is…
1. Sneaky fox: sending emails to my wife behind my back telling her things like – “your husband is in danger because he is going against “Gods church”… I fear he may harm your daughter and implying to my wife to basically leave me or that she separate from me — should I post the email?
This alone will give you a clear picture of the Cult mentality of UBF – and the sickness of this poor man (who I believe means well but is completely blinded by the UBF Cult and it’s teachings — after all he MUST be “faithful” UBF shepherd.
2. Exaggerating? were you at any of the meetings? NO. Did you speak to any of the victims? NO. should I begin to post emails so that everyone can see clearly? As a matter of fact, I was commanded precisely not to tell any of the parents what was going on – the only reason YOU knew was because I told you — otherwise you would never have known. When I began posting the articles I did it intentionally because the leadership did not want anyone to know.
3. You mention ONE girl – there were 13 victims (originally it was 12 but one victim spoke up at HBF) all together it was 13 that I know of (1 older missionary) and 3 boys – the youngest girl was 6 years old.
4. You mentioned at least (I) was not abused but I was loved by many people… who? Do you know what Mary and I had to go through in UBF? the constant open persecution while we would get encouraged in secret/quietly inside the rooms so that the leaders would not get offended. Also, you clearly had an agenda for me just like everyone else… you said so yourself… “I expected you to do …” as long as I acted Korean, as long as I lead the meetings and organized the groups, as long as I obeyed the leaders, as long as Mary worked on the website everyone was friendly and on our side – as soon as we left we became the enemies? that’s UBF love not to be confused with real love brother.
Even your profile picture gives away your true nature – you are tired, frustrated, and in need of rest. There is no rest in UBF… you’re identity is based on worldly things (how much can you work?) thats slave mentality, thats Egypt mentality — that is why God gave us the Sabbath get rid of your slave mentality brother.
I hope that you can read this verse and meditate it’s the complete opposite of what UBF teaches — Matthew 11:28-30 MSG“
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”
James you don’t have to worship UBF or the leaders God has rest for you.
Yes, I emailed to your wife, expecting that your wife might think properly. I told her that you are not normal and in danger (?) Which means spiritually. I said your darkness doesn’t hurt ubf rather it would hurt your own family. Don’t you understand? Your bitterness, anger and lies will affect your family the most. That is what I meant. And your wife said that I tried to separate your family. No! I tried to help your family. You are in darkness, full of hatred and lies.
Sorry that I don’t worship ubf.
Trying to get between a man and his wife is a line never to be crossed, despite what you believe is “correct thinking”. Even if nothing he says is true this action is inexcusable.
Mr. Kim, I’ve spoken to Carlos and others about this matter and I’ve read what he wrote. Yes, Carlos is not perfect and he does not claim to be perfect either. But it does seem to me that you write as though you are absolutely right (in you judgment) and that Carlos is absolutely wrong! So I wonder if anyone else other than you think that Carlos is “full of hatred and lies.”
I’m really seriously wondering—when comparing what you wrote with what Carlos wrote—about who exactly is the one who is “full of hatred and lies”??
When I read MrKim’s comments, I think of this.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/1gjdAX7.gif
@Joe, LOL!
@forests, “Trying to get between a man and his wife is a line never to be crossed” ubf shepheds cross that line ALL the time. The first thing that happened when I started being honest (I mean becoming “Satan”) was that my shepherd set up TWO meetings at my house. ONE was with me and 2 men, the other was with my wife and 2 women.
Needless to say, in my mind I said “No f***in way are we meeting like that!” On the phone, I told JP (the go between mediator at the time) to be sure and tell PH directly “There is no way in hell I would agree to a meeting like that.”
There is no excuse. If someone get’s between me and my wife nothing in all of creation will stop me until those responsible know my wrath.
Peace to everyone here — I am asking my wife (she has the emails) and some other documents that we recorded if she would be willing to release the materials or at least some materials – we’re in a difficult situation because of my in-laws and the ties to this UBF Cult organization.
My family has been through hell and back because of this situation and UBF cult members – we just want peace.
Thanks for sharing cm. Clearly, like Joe, your family’s final option is to “tell it to the church” publicly. If you would like to publish an article with more details, can you send something to the admin ubfriends email? We’ll discuss what to share, as we want to keep private details private. I think what you shared so far is ok.
And even though you know this, Joe, Ben, bigbear, Chris, myself and many other ubfriends commenters know what you mean by going “through hell and back”. We are here for you.
Carlos, thank you for speaking out as an advocate for victims and a voice for conscience.
I too was stunned by what MrKim wrote.
Here is a relevant quote from a prominent Southern Baptist leader about why allegations of sexual abuse must be reported to authorities.
“…sexual abuse in the context of the church must be handled in terms of both authorities responsible—both the church and the state. The state has been given the sword of justice to wield against those who commit crimes (Rom. 13:1-7). The church has no such sword (Matt. 26:51-53). This means that the immediate response to allegations of sexual abuse is to call the civil authorities, to render unto Caesar the responsibility that belongs to Caesar to investigate the crime. The church may or may not know the truth of the allegations, but it is the God-ordained prerogative of the civil authorities to discover such matters and to prosecute accordingly. When faced with a question of potential sexual abuse, call the authorities without delay.”
http://www.russellmoore.com/2015/05/22/what-should-the-duggar-scandal-teach-the-church/
Thanks for sharing this Joe. This is a very very good and healthy and Christian view of the authority of church and state. Sadly, too many Christians don’t understand this. ubf shepherds ignore it completely.
As usual, you are not alone here.
As you said I am tired. Yes I am tired not in ubf but in this website, full of darkness and hatred and etc. This gives me tiredness. I know that I must come back to word of God as many people do. It shows my immaturity that I keep fighting this endless game. It is like drug making me addicted to it. Even though I know what will be the responses, I keep expecting that there might be some reasonable people. And I am always wrong. Tired. Sad. How many hours did I waste my precious time with you guys? I cannot count it. I got so many names here, “Bull s–, troll, and cult worshipper and blah blah.” And the result is, “Am I happy?” Obviously not here. I feel terrible.
Once I thiught that I could discuss positively here. But here only those who are against ubf are welcome. If not, so many punches will be bombarded on one person. That makes me tired. I need to get out of this darkness soon. I say this over and over again. But whenever I see lies or unfairness, I come back again. Even though I know that there is no hope in here.
My agony is this.
Should I ignore this unfairness keep going here or keep looking and try to correct wrongs to reduce innocent victims?
Am I only feeding evils by involving here?
I am leaning on the latter that I feed more evils.
But God knows that I did this in pure purpose. I trust in Him only. I may go back to normalcy by God’s grace and mercy and no turning back.
mrkim,
You are feeling the pain of your conscience being burned by the Holy Spirit. I felt that too, many times, on the old Voy discussion forums. That is the Holy Spirit warning you to face the facts of your chapter and of your life.
Retreating into “personal bible time” or “quiet prayers” is not the answer. You cannot hide from the Holy Spirit.
Please speak to your chapter members/director (unless you are the director?) and find a way forward that does not grieve the Holy Spirit and a way forward that opens the door to healing and justice. To find the greater blessings of mercy, grace and love etc you and your chapter will necessarily need to pass through the valley of darkness. It will be painful. But if you do it, it will be glorious in the end.
Brian,
Holy Spirit is not warning about the matter.
Rather, the Holy Spirit warns me not to sit and talk with evil spirits.
Thank you for your advice.
I will obey the Holy Spirit and don’t come back here.
I will work for God’s glory with godly people.
So mrkim, your conscience is not bothered by 13 reports of sexual abuse?!? You say we are the evil ones for discussing this?!? Carlos is the unspiritual one for wanting to report this to the police?!?
I don’t know what god you serve mrkim or what kind of people you say are “godly” but this is not the Lord God who created the Heavens and the Earth. And those are not people of Christ who have the aroma of what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, alarm, longing, concern, readiness to see justice and to prove themselves to be innocent in this matter.
2 Corinthians 7:8-13
http://www.reactiongifs.com/arsenio-hall-zomg/
Brian,
13 victims?
Most of them don’t consider it as serious matter as police report and they didn’t even rember it happened. Some of the cases, church leaders handled it accordingly and the level was not as to report to the police. One girl is having help from professional.
Now, because the church doesn’t follow CM Diaz’s order, is the church in darkness and cult? They know when to report and when to warn. The leader had been thinking a lot.
The church concern about all church members. When something bad happen, it is not easy to handle. They do their best. But, one person doesn’t like the way and make all things in public regardless of the will of people involved and call the church a cult. That is not right.
The church is not the person’s own home that he can do evrything as he wants. The person needs to respect other opinions too.
Don’t ask me any more question. I don’t want to be here any more.
I am sure that our church is God loving church and people are trying to love each other.
I believe many of you also love God. But I don’t like the way you guys handle any issue here. I hope Carlos and Mary come back though it seems impossible.
I loved them and envied their talents. I remember when he rebuked our missionaries of our reluctance in serving God’s flock. But I want to say that God is not pleased with talents but with love. We are weak and lack in many things. But I don’t think that will be the problem. We can lack of talents or intelligence. But, we are gathering of God-lovers. I am amazed by many sincere and pure people who love Jesus. I respect our leader too. He is humble and struggle together and admit also his weakness. He trys to overcome his self-centeredness and make all his efforts not to hurt any soul. I have been with him 16 years and lived also under the same roof many years and saw his some short-comings too. But overall he deserves our respect.
I believe that is good enough.
I know that there will be lots of things to be criticized. Still, I believe that God loves us and be pleased with thise who love Him.
I know this long writing of my hears will be buried quickly with many criticism which I will not answer any more. I believe that I showed my heart enough.
Peace be with you all.
Carlos and Mary,
I want to say that I had many good memories with you. That is more than bad memories. I hope you are well.
Somewhere there is a Psych student salivating over the term paper that could be written on our comments…http://reactiongifs.com/?p=14763
Now that MrKim has left this ungodly forum to return to the pure and holy environment of his church, I cannot help but notice the parallels to the recent news stories about Josh Duggar and the Duggar family. The allegations there are eerily similar.
The story continues.
And then:
http://religiondispatches.org/josh-duggar-and-the-purity-lie/
Those thoughts immediately came to my mind also. Here’s another ironic tidbit:
Duggar says incest punishable by death penalty
Not a single person is surprised that people sin. It is the covering up of sin that infuriates people.
The sins at NY ubf are not good but what is worse is the covering up of such sin. Even worse is that ubf has a history of promoting the abusers. Of course none of this was discussed at the recent KIMNET conference where ubfers were even invited to give keynote speeches. Like the Duggars, the ubf echelon is crafty enough to paint a picture-perfect ministry of apparent holiness and purity. They are merely painting dung however, so eventually the public will know the truth.
Brian and Joe,
It is amazingly insane. There is nothing to cover up and the level is not as much as you guys are imagining. But you guys keep trying to make it look dirtier and worse. Oh, I forgot that that was always what you guys do.
Yea, nothing nothing really bad happened… nothing to see or hear or say…
I am thinking of inviting the 13 victims to share their side of the “nothing happened” story here on ubfriends.
And Joe,
I remember you said on facebook debate that it is possible that even you can report it to the police. Why don’t you do it if you think that is as serious as you said.
I just need one more piece of information and I will make the report. It is only the mercy of the people involved that I don’t have that information. All they have to do is send me one email. But they didn’t. They are more righteous than you. Genesis 38:26
Brian,
What happened to the missionary in Guadalajara, Mexico?
After you reported something bad about them, you don’t update any more. Were they in prison or Mexican government wanted some dirty money?
I don’t know. Why don’t you enlighten us mrkim? We would all know the facts if the ubf website would report them honestly. But all we know from ubf.org is that everything is wonderful in Mexico, just as it is all throughout the fabulous world of ubfland.
Brian,
Now you say that you don’t know?
Didn’t you guys already assumed as if they abused the employees sexually anf etc. and mocked ubfers who prayed for them? Now you just don’t know?
No we didn’t assume that. I shared what I could find on the internet. There were allegations of sexual abuse, safety violations, underage workers, and lack of benefits. We don’t know what really happened.
And we especially don’t know what happened after those allegations, other than the factory reopened. So indeed, I don’t know what happened after the allegations.
Yes. You didn’t know the truth.
But, you mocked people with the information which you were not sure.
That is what I am saying.
If you find anything against ubf, you are happily sharing with people so that they might have bad image of ubf.
Yes.
But usually anything bad I share on my priestly>nation website. I really want the public and ubfers to see the dark side of ubf so that ubfers may repent.
It is no shock to anyone that I am the #1 vocal critic of ubf.
Apparently, mrkim has a thing for evil spirits…
God bless you!
Indeed, God has blessed me abundantly. Perhaps you missed my recent article “The Blessed Life”. My life is so much more blessed now that I don’t have to submit to fake ubf spiritual authorities anymore. God has blessed my family so amazingly after throwing off the ubf entanglements! Now I don’t have to feel guilty anymore!
I know you are very free to say lie or truth without feeling guilty.
I never knowingly lie. Show me any of my comments where I lied.
If you say anything before you are not sure of the truth or false, that is the same as lie even though you deny it.
Ah so you admit to using Buddhist thinking rather than Christian thinking?
And don’t turn things that way. I have nothing to do with buddhism.
From the start of your comments here mrkim, you sound very much like someone steeped in Buddhist thinking. This is not bad in my view, but your thinking very much contradicts Christian thinking.
You always try to play with words.
That is very childish. Get to the point.
Even though you are not sure, you say if as if that is the truth. And that is evil even though you will deny it.
Even though you are not sure, you say if as if that is the truth. And that is evil even though you will deny it.
You say it, not if.
You say it, not if.
mrkim, what lies of mine are you referring to? Making random shots doesn’t do much to bolster anyone’s opinion of ubf missionaries.
mrkim, I am giving you and myself (BrianK) a timeout from commenting here.
The timeout is over. The accounts have been re-activated.
MrKim has repeatedly said that what happened was not serious.
Here is a summary of the New York Penal Code on sex offenses.
http://www.colgate.edu/docs/default-source/d_offices-and-services_deanofthecollege_biassexualmisconductresources_sexual-violence-support-resources/new-york-state-penal-laws-on-sex-offenses-(pdf).pdf?sfvrsn=0
Depending on the ages of those involved, we are talking about a Class A Misdemeanor (punishable by up to one year in prison) or Class D Felony (two to seven years in prison).
And we are not talking about once isolated incident, but a pattern of behavior (multiple counts) over a period of time. The penalties can accumulate. If someone is found guilty of three Class A Misdemeanors, that’s up to three years in prison.
Who wants that to happen? No one.
This is why cases of suspected abuse need to be reported to law enforcement as soon as possible. When people think “this is not so serious” and keep quiet about it or try to deal with it in their own way, the problem only gets worse.
Churches in my town require all youth ministers and youth ministry volunteers to be trained on matters of abuse every few years, with a policy of mandatory reporting whether or not it is required by law. Mandatory reporting seems harsh. But it is the most merciful and sensible policy for everyone involved, including the perpetrator. It allows the problem to be dealt with quickly and decisively, before it gets out of hand.
If these things had been alleged in MrKim’s school, and if he knew about the allegations and failed to report them to the police immediately, he would have certainly lost his job and could be prosecuted. Failure to report when there is reasonable cause to suspect is a Class A Misdemeanor. And he could be sued by the victims.
http://www.nysmandatedreporter.org/LegalProtections.aspx
Why should Christians think this is any less serious if it happens in the context of a church rather than a school?
It is *not* the job of pastors and church leaders to conduct their own investigation to determine what happened and how serious it is before reporting to the police. They are not qualified to do so. And they have too many conflicts of interest.
From another timely article:
“Every instance of abuse, no matter how seemingly insignificant, must be reported to the authorities who are trained to handle this. It is never our place to investigate or to try to determine the severity of these kinds of actions. By not reporting these crimes, we fail both the victim and the offender. I strongly believe that if this had been reported while my brother was still a young teen and he had received intensive counseling, our family would not have been so irrevocably shattered. However, when an offender is allowed to continue in these patterns of behavior for years without any accountability or repercussions, there is nothing to stop them from continuing to abuse.”
– See more at: http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/05/28/sexually-assaulted-in-a-christian-home-a-victim-speaks/#sthash.7ayvEGKK.dpuf
This seems so plainly obvious—except that when it hits close to home (or close to our own church or people we know), sadly, self-interest and self-preservation over-rules and over-rides common sense, better judgment and even the law of the land.
Probably even when reading this, those who have chosen to “handle the matter internally without reporting it to the authorities as required by the law” likely still feel fully justified that they “did the right thing.” This is truly very sad.
Hello. I do not know what happened to New York UBF though I know some folks at NYUBF. I do not know mrkim but I have some fond memories about him if he is JDK. He is very polite, gentle and humble, that I can say. If you meet with him in person, you will immediately like him. I am pretty sure Brian is also a truly humble and honest man. Hey JDK, I’m Peter Lee in Boston.
I have read the above comments as well as some heated exchanges. We need those opinions good or bad. My only concern is this. I think that many of us, especially Korean missionaries and leaders, tend to underestimate the US legal system, in parparticular when it comes to sexual crimes with minors. Even a very small incident would result in serious consequences. Certainly it is even more sensitive matters to church because of its nature. But we need to be very careful in handling it. Cover-up or ignorance will be a cheap ticket to disaster to church, pastors, congregation, witnesses, not to mention victims and all parties involved directly or indirectly. I hope we all take this matter seriously and take necessary steps to address before it is too late. But often we learn lessons from failures after paying hefty penalties. That is all I want to say for now. And, I am a regular visitor here and I appreciate all participants all of whom I admire. All have passion and love for the LORD and church including UBF.
Hi Why and welcome. Thank you so much for being a regular reader here. We are well aware that there are hundreds of silent readers each day. We hope that in spite of our OCD chit-chats from time to time that our silent readers have found something here to challenge, inspire or explain their life journey.
In regard to NY ubf, I honestly am praying the next month will be just a storm cloud that passes over. I am praying for God’s mercy.
What happens next?
WhyLee,
Your words have given me much encouragement and peace all week. This is a very good comment and demonstrates that Koreans can indeed see the issues at hand, as you point out:
“I think that many of us, especially Korean missionaries and leaders, tend to underestimate the US legal system, in parparticular when it comes to sexual crimes with minors. Even a very small incident would result in serious consequences.”
Thank you so much for sharing this! THAT is what I really really longed to hear for decades.
The recent scandal at Matt Chandler’s church has revealed that he has a few psychos in leadership (and exactly what place does a man-made “covenant agreement” have in the church?):
When Karen inquired as to why her finances were any of the elders’s concern, the pastor responded, “in a marriage separation, every aspect of your marriage is under the authority of the elders of the church.”
Shortly thereafter Karen resigned from membership of TVC.
This prompted another email exchange with Pastor Younger, who denied Karen’s resignation, citing the church’s bylaws which prohibited members who were under church discipline from resigning their membership.
Karen ceased all communication with TVC after that.
In an eight-page email dated May 23, TVC updated its members about Karen and Jordan’s progress. The church leadership praised Jordan’s recovery process, calling him fully repentant, suggesting he was submitting perfectly to the church’s course of action. The update also proclaimed that, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
However, the church did pronounce condemnation for Karen.
In that same email update, TVC chided Karen’s refusal to submit to its authority. They passive-aggressively professed their love and concern for her but woefully mourned her decision to annul her marriage. They also informed their membership that Karen was officially under “church discipline.” Which was just a nicer way of informing congregants that Karen was to be shunned, Puritan style. – http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/31/megachurch-stay-with-your-kiddie-porn-watching-husband-or-face-discipline.html
Yea David the series of epic failure in these churches are painful to bear. Why is it that those who claim to be the “most spiritual” are the one’s with the most problems?
It is also uncanny how these failures share so many common traits with what we have seen at ubf for decades, i.e. “every aspect of your marriage is under the authority of the elders of the church”
It is as if God is painting a picture of everything wrong at ubf on a national level in the US, without exposing ubf directly. Stunning.
Apparently Matt Chandler and the church very quickly offered an apology. I hope they make good on their promises. I also hope someone in UBF is taking notes.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/matt-chandler-apologizes-for-village-churchs-decision-to-di.html?share=FJ3%2fMed1C2u%2fhuBwJpl6SQgklIA37uz8
When it was clear that one of the missionaries broke the law (viewing child pornography is illegal) the church leaders reported this to police. Would UBF leaders have done this?
I listened to the apology and one thing that struck me is that he did not articulate any forthcoming changes to the “covenant” agreement that his members have to sign. Such an agreement just screams cult, at least to me. This is a comment from a blog which highlights some aspects of the apology that Chandler offered, and it is quite apt, imo:
– TVC is releasing Ms. Hinkley from membership. Is this to be seen as the last step in church discipline that Chandler mentions during his sermon? In other words – is Ms. Hinkley still considered to be a believer and leaving with no existing sin in this particular situation?
[Chandler:] Will you forgive us where our counsel turned into control?Will you forgive us where we failed to recognize the limits and scope of our authority?
When I look at TVC’s church membership covenant, I don’t see anywhere that they stepped out of line with what that document expects. It allows elders to control – and not simply counsel – the lives of members. It also gives fairly broad limits to what elders can speak into and discipline for.
So, if Chandler is sincere about this part of the apology, I think the membership covenant needs to be rewritten. (Or better yet, just trashed).
[Chandler:] Will you forgive us where we allowed our policies and process to blind us to your pain, confusion and fears?
Notice that the policies and processes are not seen as what failed here. It was individual elders making mistakes in the execution of said policies and processes. That should be a huge red flag to anyone hearing/reading this.
People are not perfect, including elders. Chandler admits as much. So why give such imperfect elders so much room to screw up and hurt people? Overhaul these “policies and processes” so that imperfect elders are subject to checks and balances.
In Chandler’s written apology – issues before the verbal one – he was actually pretty defiant in defending the church’s doctrines and policies, and even implied that the membership covenant could become more strict (i.e. would forbid annulment in addition to divorce).
[Chandler:] Will you forgive us where we failed to recognize you as the victim and didn’t empathize with your situation?
This part sounds good, but what is the actionable solution to make sure that this doesn’t happen again? Why are church elders at TVC having such a hard time empathizing with victims? Sounds like there needs to be a serious overhaul to TVC’s elder recruitment, training, and oversight systems. Some of the things that Chandler is admitting to (on behalf of TVC leaders) are enough to disqualify someone from eldership, according to the New Testament requirements.
I think it’s also concerning that it took the threat of a media firestorm to bring all of this about. What if Ms. Hinkley hadn’t been as bold in speaking up? Where would she be now?
If Chandler is sincere, then he will understand if some people cannot yet fully accept his apology. “Repentance” in the original biblical languages carries a sense of “turning around” or “changing one’s ways.” So let’s see if Chandler is able to effect real change at TVC, or if this apology was simply a form of crisis management. – http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/06/01/matt-chandler-expresses-remorse-and-asks-forgiveness-in-sunday-sermon/
fyi: http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/membership-covenant/
“When it was clear that one of the missionaries broke the law (viewing child pornography is illegal) the church leaders reported this to police. Would UBF leaders have done this? – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/01/what-not-to-say-to-someone-who-has-been-hurt-by-church/#comment-18637
Nope. But they may start soon.
So far here are some of the laws broken at ubf that were covered up and are now being exposed:
– breaking and entering (Toledo ubf)
– zoning violation (Glenn Elyn/Chicago ubf)
– molestations (NY ubf)
– drug abuse (NY ubf)
Also we have no idea what was covered up at Mexico ubf, maybe nothing but serious allegations exist.
And we have seen a long list of “bad things” covered up that do not necessarily break the law but are serious cover-ups spun into glory-stories all over ubfland:
– divorces
– abortions
– suicides
The looming darkness hanging over ubf is not these things directly but the refusal to obey laws and the intentional cover up of facts needed to make an accurate assessment of the situations.
This brings us full circle back to my two public demands that I have repeatedly made the past 4 years to all ubf members:
1. Admit the abuse. Face the facts of every situation and account for multiple perspectives. Respect the genuine self-narratives and personal boundaries of people. Take responsibility at the corporate level of the organization, not just for “glory” but for “shame” as well.
2. Release the bonds. Put an end to the shepherding ideology that burdens, enslaves and entangles people’s lives in un-ending, un-healthy, co-dependent relationship between “shepherd” and “sheep”.