Where’s the Hope?
In a recent comment, Joe asked me “What is springboarding?“. And Ben challenged all of us to think about “How to improve our UBF messages“. Because I feel that I didn’t adequately answer Joe’s question and because I have had many thoughts on how to improve UBF messages, I would like to share my thoughts in reponse, using a message delivered by one of my friends in Toledo UBF just a couple weeks ago. There are two other reasons I share these thoughts. I was a UBF messanger for over 20 years. The most eye-opening experience I had as a UBF messenger was to read the public criticism of my message from former UBF messengers.
Within the past few weeks, my friend in Toledo UBF shared a Sunday lecture. This lecture is now published publicly. Here is my reaction to it. Here is the public version: THE PLANS HE HAS FOR YOU.
What is springboarding?
Springboarding is a word I made up. It does not exist in Merriam-Websters dictionary. Why did I make up such a word? I made up “springboarding” to describe how I used to write messages in UBF. At that time, I would not care about the common definitions of words. I would redefine words, take them out of context and arrange them to make my point, a point I often didn’t understand. I took much liberty with language.
The word springboard however does exist. No I’m not talking about that flexible board used in swimming pools. I am talking about the other meaning: “a point of departure; a jumping-off place”.
The most common problem I have discovered with my UBF messages, and a problem that is rampant among UBF messengers, is the act of taking a “key verse” and using that verse as a point of departure from the bible text. The late James Kim warned me about this when he critiqued my messages. He warned me of the danger of making my own framework and then jumping into that framework from one of the bible verses in order to talk about something I wanted to talk about. He said we should respect and understand the framework presented by the text before making any conclusions or applications. For some reason, I didn’t listen to his good advice. I am listening now however!
Feeling exiled
My friend really wants to talk about hope. He clearly feels some connection to the exiles mentioned in the book of Jeremiah. He and his ministry is in quite a bit of chaos lately, and has been for about three years. And in the back of his mind he knows the chaos has been there all 25 years he’s been there. Listen to some of his words about how hopeless he feels:
“In my 25 years in Toledo UBF, to my knowledge we have never studied a passage from the book of Jeremiah.”
“We don’t always get to choose were we are to be and our best laid plans often don’t work out. Maybe you planned for 2 children, but God gave you 4 instead. Maybe you planned to study computer science but God changed your major to creative writing.”
Jumping into Hope
Ok so my friend is feeling a bit down and rather quickly remembers one of the most quoted verses in Toledo UBF, Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” He then gets excited and launches into preparing a message about hope. He longs for hope and correctly recognizes that the people still left in Toledo UBF need hope. So what does he do? He jumps into talking about hope from Jeremiah 29:11. He really wants to talk about hope, and by the stars in heaven, he is going to.
I find it highly insightful to notice what words the Holy Scripture talks about and what words my friend talks about in his message.
This is my friend’s message visualized in Wordle:
Based on word counts, his message is unbalanced and creates a framework different from the text in the bible. He talks mostly about these three words:
1. God (God or God’s appear 96 times)
2. hope (hope appears 37 times)
3. plans (plan or plans appear 33 times)
This is Jeremiah 29:1-14 visualized in Wordle:
What are the top 3 words this text talks about?
1. LORD (appears 8 times)
2. exile (appears 5 times)
3. Jerusalem (appears 5 times)
Hope is not hope-so but a know-so
I’m not making this up. The Toledo UBF messenger says “hope is not hope-so but a know-so”. What does that mean? Because I know this man personally, I know he is capable of so much better writing. Why is he so confused?
“Hope is the main message I really want to talk about today. But how can I ever hope to explain the meaning of hope. Underneath every story from Genesis to Revelation you can find a message of hope. Essentially, the stories all follow the same basic pattern. Man puts his in something other than God, man fails, God disciplines man; man either repents and finds hope in God again or loses hope and dies miserably. These stories also teach us that humans have definitions of hope that are different from God’s. We might hope our team wins, or we might hope we don’t lose our jobs or our house. But the biblical definition of hope is not hope-so but a know-so.”
“Hope-so hope is not for sure. There is no absolute certainty about it. But godly hope is know-so hope, because there is no doubt that what God says, will happen. It is surer than the rising of the sun each day. Here are just two words of God for which we can be certain.”
1 Cor 10:13b “And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
And Rom 5:5 “And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.”
Clearly my friend is seeking “a way out” of the mess in Toledo UBF. He has been disappointed the past three years and longs for love to be poured out. What hope does he find? What hope does my friend offer us? Keep reading.
“God’s hope never disappoints, because God is always faithful to His word. He is our anchor in the present and for the future. The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15:19 “19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” Godly hope is not hope for in the things of this life, but for God’s heavenly treasure. Our true hope is Jesus and his kingdom. Until we reach it we must keep believing, keep trusting, keep obey and remaining in Jesus and his words.”
So my friend gives us a vague hope for future life in heaven. Wait a minute, I need hope now! Can’t we have hope now too? That verse he quoted does not say “Don’t have hope in this life.” It just says “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” That means we can and should have hope for this life and also for the future. My friend falls for the typical UBF misrepresentation of 1 Corinthians 15:19. The UBF teaching almost always presents a false dichotomy. The verse is not saying we have to choose between hope for this life and hope for Heaven. It is simply saying don’t have hope only for this life. The hope Jesus gives is for now. It is for today. And it is for tomorrow and the future and in Heaven. Hope is hope. We need it now and in the future.
Self-generated Certitude
The Toledo UBF messenger then launches into teaching us three methods of generating certitude.
“The condition to receiving the plans that God has for us, and for realizing God’s hope is three-fold. Call, come and pray, and seek with all your heart. Calling on God is not like calling someone on your cell phone. To call on God is first to acknowledge God’s sovereignty and power over our lives. In this way we can “approach the throne of grace with confidence…and receive His mercy and grace in the time of our need.” Secondly, to pray. Pray for the forgiveness and God’s help in following the plan He has laid out for us. Finally, seek me with all your heart. We won’t know God’s will, seeking him half-heartedly. Only seeking him in desperate times. We won’t come to know God’s hope, if our heart remains divided between our worldly hopes for wealth, and relationship and God’s hope for eternal riches that remain unseen.
Call, and God will come! Pray and He will listen. Seek with all your heart and you shall find. Then, we our spirit within shall experience God’s living hope! A peace amidst the storms of life! A knowledge and understanding of God’s plan that enables us to make sense of the world around us.”
I hope my friend reads other parts of the bible when speaking about hope in the future, such as Psalms 62:5 “Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him.” and Colossians 1:27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
The hope found in the bible is not dependent on our seeking or our praying. The bible presents the great story of hope in the person of Christ.
Hope is not Certitude
I think we should take a look at the dictionary for a moment. My friend is presenting methods to generate certitude, not preaching the gospel of Jesus which inspires hope that is living.
hope (noun)
desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfillment
someone or something on which hopes are centered
hope: (verb)
to cherish a desire with anticipation; trust
certitude:
the state of being or feeling certain; certainty of act or event
Conclusion
Here is the conclusion of this hopeless message:
“We all experience times of exile. We often can’t wait for our current struggle to be over. But through the message of Jeremiah we learn that we must never give up. We must do our part and continue living one day at a time in obedience to God’s word. God does have a plan for us but His plan might not be on our timing. Until then, we call, pray and seek, In so doing Christ Jesus will reveal himself to us. God’s spirit will speak to our hearts and lead us in paths of righteousness. Even though our present reality may be like a valley of death, we shall not fear, but hope in the Lord and in goodness. In His hands we shall prosper and dwell in the house of Lord forever.”
I don’t hear hope here. I hear about plans and working. I hear selfish ambition to grab God’s blessing. Is our Lord so inclined to listen to such plans and work? I hope so.
An example of hope
I find this paragraph to be utterly offensive and hopeless.
“God commanded the exiles to pray for their captors. It is easier to pray for the people and places we like, but God says we must also pray for the people and places we don’t like. “Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers we all prosper.” In Toledo, our Public school system is not good so I and many of our co-workers send their children to private schools, charter schools or do home schooling. Be we really must pray for Toledo schools, because if they fail, people will leave Toledo, then business leave, then the University declines and so on. And so Toledo could fall into ruin like our neighbor Detroit who recently declared bankruptcy and who lost 25% of it population in less then 10 years. 30% of its houses remain empty and abandon. I don’t believe it will happen to Toledo. The point is whether we are from Toledo, Frankfurt, Cologne, Seoul, or wherever, we must Pray for our cities and countries and it’s leaders.”
Perhaps my friend in Toledo UBF will come to visit Detroit and learn about hope?
Interesting post, you’re comments certainly come from your heart and are fair points to make, I can see and understanding your perspective through this critique.
However, I have a question. Considering that the writer of this message is your friend, did you first confront him personally about his errors in gentleness and love? Perhaps you would get a better response if you wrote this to him in a personal email or perhaps talked over the phone, or even discussed it over some coffee. Then, if he didn’t respond or refused to see your point of view, you would have every right to do as you have done here.
In my opinion, this is not the way to go about correcting someone that you consider a friend. If you think otherwise, perhaps it would be best to revisit and reevaluate your definition of friendship. If a friend did this to me, I would hesitate to even call that person a friend. However, if he privately expressed his concerns to me in a loving and humble way in which two way dialogue can happen, I would not only be more likely to see things from his point of view, but also to remain friends with that person.
Hi secondgen777. Someone who has much power and influence in Toledo UBF made it clear that I would be facing a harassment lawsuit if I continued emailing Toledo UBF members privately. So I stopped.
I use the term friend, not because any kind of friendship exists, but to communicate the fact that I long for the day when we could be friends.
I plan to start a new series on my blog where I review the Toledo UBF messages on a weekly basis. I call it the “Toledo UBF Weekly Message Review”. I won’t hold back regardless of who is the messenger.
“Considering that the writer of this message is your friend, did you first confront him personally about his errors in gentleness and love?”
No. As I explained, I cannot communicate like that due to fear of a harassment lawsuit.
“Perhaps you would get a better response if you wrote this to him in a personal email or perhaps talked over the phone, or even discussed it over some coffee.”
Coffee is out for we live in different cities. I received rather spiteful responses from this friend when I tried to discuss various matters through email. I don’t think that is an avenue I could pursue.
“Then, if he didn’t respond or refused to see your point of view, you would have every right to do as you have done here.”
I think you are wrong about that. If I met someone personally and shared private concerns, why do you think that gives me the right to share publicly? We are not talking about any kind of sin against me, which if that were the case you would be correct.
This is a public message given by a group of people who claim to be the “elite soldiers of Christianity”. They won’t respond by the way. The only thing they may do is to hide the public messages, which would be a service to the internet community. Sharing publicly this way is not meant to help my friend; he won’t listen now (but might in the future).
My sharing might help others to discern why the messages in Toledo UBF continue to not give life or ignite a hopeful Christian response in people. The messages in Toledo UBF were what started the blow up in 2010, and 3 years later the messengers there just “keep on keeping on” without making any effort to learn from real pastors.
Proverbs 27:5-6 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
For what it’s worth I will say that to highlight Detroit in the face of many other cities appears to be the typical back handed remark against a former co-worker. It should not have been stated at all. The message would have been better not to say about Detroit. I almost get the impression that because of Brian the spiritual condition of Detroit was addressed as a whole. If I am wrong then someone from Toledo should tell us so. If I am right however then I believe all of UBF leadership needs to grow up and cut the crap on derisively speaking about someone in any way. Including this example which is subtle but painfully plain and obvious for someone like Brian.
One last thing, yes, ubfriends does the same thing. It mentions and scorns people inside of UBF. However, the most that is demanded is a common ground to see that abuse occurred. No one I believe is trying to turn anyone 100% to their side. But in UBF if we do not turn 100% to the side of the status quo and body then we are shunned in any way that can be conceived.
I would otherwise agree with the comment from secondgen777 completely. If we know someone personally it is indeed better to confront them in a private manner. Sometimes the online commentary lacks tact and ‘professionalism’ but in this case I can see where Brian is coming from.
“to highlight Detroit in the face of many other cities appears to be the typical back handed remark against a former co-worker.”
Correct, gc. You understand why this message came across as utterly offensive to me. Did the Toledo UBF messenger intentionally mean to do this? Probably not. Did the Toled UBF messenger think more than 2 seconds about how this would sound to me or other former membes or anyone outside Toledo? No. Was that “guy who failed to pray for Detroit and who left UBF in Detroit” in the back of a lot of people’s minds when they heard this? Probably yes.
Brian, a few thoughts come to mind, and the first is that when I heard his message, I was encouraged and experienced a sense of hope in spite of the current situation in Toledo UBF. Yes, we have been in a state of wandering for the past three years, and we recognize that we are in deep need of God’s mercy to pull us out and to move us towards being a truly healthy and vibrant church community. I thank God for these years because it has forced us to examine ourselves. Many of us have gone through deep personal examination and have personally confronted things in us that were not pleasing to God. Have we been hit with feelings of hopelessness? I can speak for myself and say yes, personally I have. DO I seek hope in God. Yes I do. And I thank God for the hope that I have in God and not in ourselves. When I heard his message, I did not feel that he was saying “forget about your hope now, your hope will only be in the kingdom of God.” I felt that he was drawing me to put my hope in God, to call upon him and seek him, because no program will give us hope, no new system will give us hope. Our hope is in coming to God as a repentant community as the exiles did when Jeremiah gave this message. These years have certainly felt like exile and yes, we do believe that God still has a plan for us. If you hear “plans and working” then I think you hear right. We have plans to rebuild walls that have been torn down, because of our own pride and ignorance. There is no one on the pastoral team or eldership who views themselves as “elite soldiers of Christianity”. We are as human and ordinary as you are. Anyways Brian, stay tuned for my message to be posted and have at it.
your friend, (and I actually mean that in spite of this posting)
mark.
@gc, no this message was not about Brian. The message spoke of Toledo Public Schools as well as call to the community to pray for our community, including TPS. He says, “The point is whether we are from Toledo, Frankfurt, Cologne, Seoul, or wherever, we must Pray for our cities and countries and it’s leaders.” I can see how speaking of another city could be felt as an attack and I appreciate that. If someone spoke of Toledo, I would probably take exception.
Hi Mark,
I don’t understand a couple things.
a) Why do you feel exiled? Wasn’t it me who was exiled, pushed away and driven off along with several other leaders?
b) Why do you want to rebuild walls? Wasn’t it the walls that stood in the way of forming real friendships? Isn’t it God’s work to tear down the walls of hostility that are clearly between us?
I don’t dispute the fact that someone could have been encouraged by this message. I believe what you say about intentions. But the content of this message says otherwise. I think a messenger has to be at least somewhat concerned with how the message will be received. In my review, it is a one-star message. If someone gives a 4 star message, I’ll say so in my weekly reviews.
Just tagging these questions again, because they are not rhetorical.
I don’t understand a couple things.
a) Why do you feel exiled? Wasn’t it me who was exiled, pushed away and driven off along with several other leaders?
b) Why do you want to rebuild walls? Wasn’t it the walls that stood in the way of forming real friendships? Isn’t it God’s work to tear down the walls of hostility that are clearly between us?
I don’t use the term “exile” lightly. God exiled the Israelites as a punishment to them. There was something that they certainly needed to learn during this time. In that sense, exile is something that God does to us for is purpose. And that is how I feel these years have been. People do not put other people into “exile” in the way I define exile. Were you ostracized? Yes. People cut you off like… well, they just cut you off. Some had reason because of the way you came across and they were not comfortable with that kind of communication and relationship and I understand that. But it also gave people an easy way to rationalize ostracizing you. I have always thanked God for what you have meant to UBF because without you being a voice for so many, we would not be where we are, which I personally feel is a better place than before. When history is written, key people will be identified for what they failed to do and what they were willing to do. I also acknowledge the efforts of TF and EF who truly spoke out for the good of Toledo UBF. We are where we are because they spoke up. I have not thanked them as I should.
My reference to building walls is not in reference to rebuilding “the walls of hostility”. It is the walls of a healthy body of Christ. My reference was to the walls of Jerusalem being rebuilt. The analogy stops there. My hope is to build a healthy community and body of Christ. That includes you Brian and not only people who have left UBF but those who would call upon the name of Christ. John Armstrong’s book, Unity Factor truly challenges me to look beyond our ministry (we are not the end) and see the body of Christ as larger than my own little world and rejoice in the work of God as it unfolds around us.
I’m not in favor of you continuing a rating system unless your purpose is to edify and support us to write better messages. In that case, I am definitely, in favor of you communicating that personally. The spirit by which we write and serve the congregation with the word of God is not for the purpose of defending our wrongs or justifying ourselves, or continuing an unhealthy ministry. If that is coming out in the messages, then by all means please communicate that personally. But I can say that our hope is to feed those who come to our service with a word of God that we are being inspired by and that we pray is honoring to God.
Thanks for clarifying Mark.
Thanks for listening (reading).
I am listening and speaking. My Fall message review series has already begun.
A year and a half ago, we Penn Staters were reading through and discussing 2 Corinthians. That “Jars of Clay” passage in chapter 4 continues the theme that Paul set up at the end of chapter 3. I explained my understanding of those passages in this article, which didn’t attract much attention at the time. It would be interesting to see if my explanation has anything in common with the recent Toledo message.
Joe, I find no resemblence between your article and the Toledo UBF message. I find your article highly insightful. The veil indeed needs to come down, and we need to be unmasked.
Well ok there is one thing in common: You both picked a movie to reference. That is ok to do if a meaningful connection is made, as you did in your article. The Toledo UBF message just quickely makes a “cute connection” that comes off like a loud gong.
Brian,
Help me to understand what the difference is between what you are doing (in regards to the Toledo Messages) and what SL did ? From here, I see a great resemblence. You took a message, you not only critiqued the message, but also criticized it ( “The Toledo UBF message just quickely makes a “cute connection” that comes off like a loud gong.” )- you spin the truth to get the effect you want. You call the messenger “my friend” which later you say, “I use the term friend, not because any but to communicate the fact that I long for the day when we could be friends”. ( this is not how you go about making friends especially when “your friend” has no idea what you just did to his message in public and behind his back). Isnt this shaming, criticizing, spining the truth and above all hurtful and not building up. Please show me how this is building up( well maybe building up walls of hostility), edifying, or Christ like.
Isnt this what stoning would look like in a modern day society. I am not against what is happening in UBFriends. I like the dialogue, I like the honesty, the transparency,its helped me process many things. God is using it, but sometimes its to hostile and wounding for me to join. Sometimes i feel that its one sided and if I dont side with you (anti-ubf), then I am just siding with UBF which is the bad guy and i should just take all the “finger pointing and stoning” because I am part of the problem since i am still in ubf. Or i am labeled blind to all the issues.
There are a few of us in UBF who are not blind to the issues,we know the ugly in this organization and the good. We are standing in the midst of the mess, and we are receiving blows from both sides. I want you to know that there is alot of pain here to. Your pain is not bigger than my pain, nor my pain is bigger than yours. Pain is subjective,Its individual pain. (there i said it) The only difference between those who left ubf and some of us still in UBF is that we believe God has called us to stay to be used by Him to make a difference. He has called you elsewhere.
You mention hostility, that Toledo should be breaking down the walls of hostility. Arent you building walls of hostility when you keep talking against Toledo UBF and its messengers, knowing full well of the current status of Toledo. You know full well that we invited John Armstrong to help us dialogue within the whole ministry to discuss issues. That the past director PH stepped down, and three natives stepped up to serve the ministry. That internal change is happening and God is working, not at our pace but at His.That we are seeking God and outside help to do what is right before God and others because that is what we long to do.
Mark wrote the following about receiving input from you personally towards the messages. Are you going to respect this or are you going to find an excuse to go public because your true intention is not really making friends nor building up Toledo? I ask again arent you doing the same thing SL did?
So what is your true intent Brian? We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometimes we must surrender to God and let go and allow Him to heal us and allow reconciliation to occur. I am only speaking of Toledo UBF not as UBF as a whole.
Mark wrote:
My reference to building walls is not in reference to rebuilding “the walls of hostility”. It is the walls of a healthy body of Christ. My reference was to the walls of Jerusalem being rebuilt. The analogy stops there. My hope is to build a healthy community and body of Christ. That includes you Brian and not only people who have left UBF but those who would call upon the name of Christ. John Armstrong’s book, Unity Factor truly challenges me to look beyond our ministry (we are not the end) and see the body of Christ as larger than my own little world and rejoice in the work of God as it unfolds around us. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/08/31/wheres-the-hope/#sthash.xkn2K7SH.dpuf
I’m not in favor of you continuing a rating system unless your purpose is to edify and support us to write better messages. In that case, I am definitely, in favor of you communicating that personally. The spirit by which we write and serve the congregation with the word of God is not for the purpose of defending our wrongs or justifying ourselves, or continuing an unhealthy ministry. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/08/31/wheres-the-hope/#sthash.xkn2K7SH.dpuf
Martha, thank you for chiming in. Your perspective is valued here. I sincerely hope that participating in this forum will not feel hostile or wounding for you or anyone.
Just to clarify, so that no one gets confused: Brian’s reviews and ratings appear on his own website, not on UBFriends. I would not be in favor of putting them here.
Hi Martha:
“Help me to understand what the difference is between what you are doing (in regards to the Toledo Messages) and what SL did ?”
I am reviewing the public messages from Toledo UBF on my own blog. I don’t think SL ever did something like that. Did he ever review Toledo messages? I don’t quite understand why you saw I’m acting like SL. I would like to understand what you mean though.
“Please show me how this is building up( well maybe building up walls of hostility), edifying, or Christ like.”
I am reviewing the Toledo UBF messages. If someone gives a 4 star sermon, I’ll say so. Has anyone ever given useful feedback to ubf messengers? I was such a messenger for 20 years, and I can safely say no one in ubf ever gave any useful feedback. A ubf messenger just receives words of flattery and the awkward “Thank God for your message!” type feedback. Or from time to time a ubf messenger is told how bad their message was but with no helpful information as to why it was bad. So Toledo UBF messages don’t improve.
The messages are the wall of hostility. When I was trying to deliver messages in Detroit UBF I became more and more frustrated with the Toledo UBF messages and ubf messages in general. Did I share my frusration? Yes. I initiated that conversation about the quality of messages. That is precisely how we got to where we are today!
The messages were at the heart of the Toledo UBF issues, were they not? Isn’t that what KB and TF and EF and NM all said? So I believe that I am being Christ-like by giving Toledo UBF messengers helpful feedback that will enable them to improve their messages. If the messages are the lifeline and source of God’s word, isnt’t improving them a worthwhie effort?
I do this review publicly because the messages are publicly available. I also do it publicly so that many people can add their thoughts. Maybe I’m wrong about a review. Then people can share their thoughts as well.
I’m not on a witch hunt. I really do want to help the messages improve. If the messages are “high quality” already, why shouldn’t they stand up to a review? Is there any process in place to do that within Toledo UBF? I don’t think so. There never has been any kind of message training except internal regurgitation of the same style message.
As Joe pointed out, this is my initiative on my blog. If my article here on ubfriends is not appropriate, I’ll gladly take it down. I won’t be reviewing the messages forever. But I will be reviewing them this Fall.
“I ask again arent you doing the same thing SL did?”
No, a thousands time no, why do you claim such a thing? I would have understood if you said that Brian’s critique is unfair, unnecessary, wrong, arrogant, too much or whatever. But to claim this is similar to what Samuel Lee was doing is absurd.
The big difference is that Brian, contrary to Samuel Lee, does not claim to be anybody’s commander, does not claim to be “God’s servant”, does not claim to know God’s will for another person, does not claim to be the personal “shepherd” of anybody, does not claim to have any authority.
Samuel Lee’s problem was that he manipulated others to believe he is God’s “visible servant” and representative on this earth. And then, from this position, he started to give others “orientation”, even claiming that people will experience accidents if they don’t obey him. That was the problem with Samuel Lee, not that he criticized people too much. Had he just been a Christian brother with the bad habit of critizing people too much, that would have bothered nobody. His problem was that he claimed he was not a brother, but a father and commander for other people, and speaking on God’s behalf.
Chris,
Thank you for taking my words into consideration by typing out Samuel Lee’s name. Your action did not go unnoticed by me. Thank you. :-)
I am terrified to get caught in the crossfire, but I will do so at my own risk. Brian, Mark and Martha really are your family in Christ. Please hear them out. I think they acknowledge your feelings for sure, but your working through the messages is not necessarily out of love. Whether or not criticisms are valid I am not commenting. Ben already asked how can we improve UBF messages in addition to the messenger and presentation.
If Mark and Martha are willing to dialogue with you on ubfriends then maybe you could correspond with them directly with your thoughts about the messages. I urge you not to be consumed with this. What truly motivates you? Be honest. Don’t let it ruin you.
I say this out of love because before submitting these online watch and guard your heart. This subject matter is way too close to you and we all understand what you may be doing in a practical sense, but it does not mean that everyone will agree with what you are doing. Remember that Mark and Martha are actually your friends.
I know nothing more of this and also cannot say any further. Just please do not be too hasty.
Thanks gc. I fully understand that most will not like some of the things I have done or am doing. Your words and Martha’s words are worth considering. I will consider them.
Brian,
I will tell you straightly, I absolutely have zero problem with you doing what you are doing. You had the courage to stand up and say things that needed to be said. But don’t go and ruin it, by treating everyone as your enemy if they don’t wholeheartedly agree with your every view or don’t behave as you think they ought. When you do your message will only be hurt.
Tbh, I didn’t realize it at first, but as time has gone on, I discovered that my critique that I initially gave in my very first comment on this website, was my attempt to help you (all) to not alienate and have people ‘tune out’ the very valid message you are trying to convey. If you want people to listen to you, then you need to stop thinking everyone’s motive is sinister and dark, if they don’t agree with you, especially those who think the exact opposite of you. If you really want things to change, you can’t keep accusing those you want to change specific practices, they won’t listen… Surprise, surprise… Have genuine dialogue. I apologized when it was pointed out I said something that I should not have, but when I pointedl out to you the shabby way you treated me with your remark, when I said I want to start a new thread, called ‘Why’ and also your backhanded remark, about ‘Yippee’, ‘Skippy’, it doesn’t help your cause.
As I told you from the start, you are not my enemy. I will tell you the reason why I stepped away for several days last week. It was because I could see anger and frustration was rising in my heart towards some, including you Brian, the more I participated. But it was never my intention to just get increasingly angry and judgemental towards anyone here, but it was happening, whether I intended it or not. I came to have a real and genuine and honest conversation and to share my real opinions, and have a real dialogue, which I could see was not really happening. What I really want is for an understanding and peace to come out and even some change to take place, on both sides.
Brian,
Tbh, I also have treated people improperly with my sarcastic responses on numerous occasions. I did so out of my anger and to ‘push back’ as Joe likes to euphemistically call it. But it doesn’t justify it. I shouldn’t do it and I’m sorry that I do. And yet, I call you out personally on the very thing I do. Please forgive my hypocrisy, but please understand what I’m really trying to say, which others have much more elegantly and properly have shared. My real heart Brian, my real heart is that you don’t allow the pain, anger, and hurt yoy have will not consume you and poisen you still further.
Brian,
You are a good man. I really mean that. And I’m glad to know you and dare say to call you my brother.
there may be need to separate message & messenger; sometimes it’s necessary to vent against organizational agenda messages, while showing consideration for messenger
may the Holy Spirit enliven our hearts & minds with such spirit fruit that to share that we don’t waste our time with man’s agenda/ploys
One more thing Martha,
Yes I’m aware of all the facts you mention, such as inviting JA, etc. I know those facts and I am aware of other facts as well. I realize I am putting the last remaning friendships I have with Toledo UBF on the line.
I believe so much is at stake here that I’m willing to risk such a thing, just as I risked it two years ago. No one would have “liked” what I did at the time.
Honestly I’m surprised by the 6 likes on this article (in addition to my own 1 like).
Hey Brian,
Its kind of sad that you are willing to risk losing friendships over this…Id like to think that you know Mark and I well enough to know that you wouldnt lose us as friends over a heated discussion. We have had plenty with you over the past years.:)
I believe that the new article written by Joe has articulated alot of what i was trying to say. I do agree that feedback is necessary, but there has to be a constructive way to do it.
Brian, I will comment later on your response. I need to think about it some more.
Hi Martha,
When I mentioned putting friendship on the line, I did not mean I’m willing to risk losing friendships. What I mean is that I’m willing to risk straining friendships. I believe the friendship between you and I and Mark and I can survive all this. I won’t tip-toe around and I won’t let “like” or “dislike” buttons determine my actions.
Up to now I have believed that God’s calling for me was to be a STOP sign for ubf people– to cause people in ubf to stop and consider what is going on around us, especially in regard to friends leaving the ministry.
But lately I’m coming to a different belief– a belief that God wants my life to be a connector. What I mean is that I don’t think God has called me elsewhere. I am in a rather unique position to both understand the struggles of ubf people and learn from the outside Christian world, and connect the two.
You are a better man than me. And I don’t say that to blow smoke up your butt, I really mean that. That doesn’t mean I agree with you on everything. But don’t be alarmed, I don’t agree with everything my wife tells me either… :-D
Terry,
I don’t know how to respond to all your thoughts in these last few comments. So I’ll just say this. You mentioned something that stood out to me: “I could see anger and frustration was rising in my heart”.
Anger and frustration (and even hyper-ventilation) is what I experienced when I participated in the “ubfriends 1.0” (which is my term for the Voy forum discussions :) I was so insanely worried about proving myself right and finding out who was on what side and did anyone justify ubf…
But this time around I am peaceful. Believe it or not there is no anger in my article above. I want to offer precise ways for Toledo UBF messengers to improve. Calling out some of their messages is something I believe will connect them to some non-ubf input and to some of the amazing things I’ve been learning the last few years.
You mentioned something about not agreeing, and even your wife disagrees sometimes. Why is that so surprising? One of my first lessons after leaving ubf was to discover this: It’s ok to disagree! How liberating. There are 7 billion people in this world. Not a single one agrees with me. It is in our differences that we find the peace and unity you seek.
Now I’m not saying I don’t get angry. Some my comments here did have anger behind them, but only a very few. I am being “me”. I am expressing my opinion. That’s something most normal people do. We are human beings. Only in ubf did I learn that we can’t be our selves and we should conform and submit humbly without question.
I know you will immediately say that you have been yourself all along. That’s fine. But I hope you realize many of us are not as strong as you. And some of us became submissive to ubf shepherds when we were at a very vulnerable time. Why do I sometimes come across as a rebellious 19 year old? Well because part of me was frozen in time when I experienced trauma as a 19 year old. Only now is that part of me becoming thawed out.
Love is not clean, btw. Love is messy. I don’t believe that love looks like clean hands or a nice tidy house (though I love cleanliness!) Love looks like dry, dirty, war-torn hands. Hands that look so fragile they would break but are really strong enough to lift a friend out of harm’s way.
I will never agree with you fully. You will never agree with me fully. But I am willing to be your friend.
Not to be a thorn, but personally I don’t find either approach, the generalities of Joe’s do’s and don’ts article or the public mocking of Brian’s article here, to be helpful. I appreciate Joe’s attempt to bring civility to message critiquing, but I need honest feedback on what I wrote to help guide me in the future as to what to do and what not to do. In that sense, I can better learn and apply the do’s and don’ts. As I thought about it, I would actually really appreciate honest critique of my messages in order to improve their quality. I agree with Brian that often we get the “Thanks for your message,” comment. I received a, “keep trying” comment on my last one. Neither are really helpful. In that sense, I appreciate that Brian will take the time to give me some feedback. What I took issue with was that I found Brian’s critique here to be of a mocking and somewhat cynical tone. Was it because of the slam against Detroit, maybe. But I understand the spirit behind which he is doing this. He actually does want to see improvement on how we handle God’s word. He is willing to take the time to do so. Would I prefer it to be done personally. Yes. However, I would be willing to receive it publically, if it is done without the mocking/cynical tone that he shows here. Face it, none of us are going to be going to seminary in the near future, and the Biblical education we have is basically what we read in commentaries, online and in our own sometimes insular form of Bible study. However, I must say that I have had some Holy Spirit inspired Bible studies that I have really enjoyed here in Toledo. Nobody wants to be mocked especially after we’ve put in much of our time and mental and emotional energy into serving a God-honoring message. I readily admitted at the ISBC messenger interest group that I am old school in my message writing because that is all I know. I certainly do try to improve. One young leader told me she fell asleep during my message. I remembered that and made a concerted effort not to write such a boring and dry message. So Brian’s blog will probably be useful to me. We do have a form of accountability in message writing which is to submit your message for review prior to delivering it. I am not in favor of that either as I am trying to seek God’s leading as I write and I find it very confusing to take what others say and put it into my message. But if I say something that does not make sense, then I would like to know. Sorry for rambling. Thank God this is not a message.
Mark, you touched on several thoughts that intertwine with what God’s voice has been saying to me lately. I don’t have the words to say right now, but I deeply appreciate your thoughts here.
Oh and you said, “Thank God this is not a message.”
Yea, because then I’d have to give it a rating :)
My Toledo UBF message review kicks off this week with two reviews and explanations of my rating system.
And in case you want to read a critique of my own message go ahead. Back in 2006 that criticism was hard to take. But I’ve gone back to that many times since then. It has been most helpful for me to learn.
I feel like I just came out of the dentist’s office. A little painful but better for it. I appreciate the honest and edifying feedback Brian. I did not sense any mocking/cynicism, but rather, a brother’s love for his brother in Christ for the glory of God. 2 stars! I can only go up from here.
My review will continue later this week on my blog. But I just want to share here that last Sunday’s Toledo UBF message contained some significant improvements.
our only hope is in God, man continually reminds us of that:)
today ctr passage/john 9: man born blind had to battle religious ldrs who were full of themselves/cared nothing about healing/tried to stop Jesus’ work
there is no hope in man-made mission; our only hope is in God himself;
God Himself has hope in His own mission, but only He can rightly handle it; He doesn’t need our extra help; He needs us to live rightly/authentically in Him, He will do the rest;
we gotta stop destroying what He is doing, get outta the way, let Him work in/among…
i think hope in religion is only in starting over with basics:
time in God’s word (but as fellow seekers of Holy Spirit guidance, not making one interpretation & forcing down everyone’s throat as if we’re sure we’re right, when often we’ve been wrong..)
time in prayer (but as prayer for all nations, not making my little fishbowl part of world better/greater..)
time in fellowship (but as friends in God/encouraging one another/trusting God to guide each person over time, not imposing beliefs/bragging/judging/etc)
time in worship (but as collective praise/learning, not showing off/bullying into one point of view/only one way of ever doing things)
time in helping others (if/when able, not before primary obligations of family, work/school, etc)
just a few thoughts after 51 yrs experience with various denominations HALLELUJAH!