Torn, by Justin Lee

“Justin Lee came to understand that both Christians and gays shared the same cultural dynamic. They both saw the world in terms of “Gays vs. Christians.” He realized that, “You had to pick one or the other, and whichever one you didn’t pick had to be squelched or hidden or forgotten.”

How could this dilemma be resolved?

Going to the Bible didn’t help Lee. He looked at the evidence carefully (and some of his insights and questions are quite good), but ultimately he found the evidence inconclusive. “I realized that I could easily make a clear, compelling argument for either position,” he discovered. Torn again.

However, when Justin Lee stepped back from these specific verses and asked the question about what the Bible taught as a whole, in the light of Jesus, he came to a different conclusion. Further study led him to believe that the “law of love” (as in Romans 13:8-10) should guide us, and Lee saw that his church had gotten this issue wrong.”

(Source: the Internet Monk review of the book Torn)

>>> I have not read this, but I’ll try to find it.

“He mentions opinions of some authors about diffirentiating orientation and conduct. Still he proves that Paul condems homosexuality as does God. And he calls the opinions absurd. He also says that it was usual to call homosexuality “unnatural” and heterosexuality “natural” in Paul times. I agree with him, as I agree with Calvin and Henry.”

>>> I don’t. Some of the best Christian thinkers simply could not handle discussing sexual-related issues.

“I can’t believe that God creates some people with the homosexual orientation.”

>>> Much of the world acknowledges the fact that some people are born with a homosexual orientation. Many medical groups, including the American Medical Association, have for years condemned the practice of trying to “cure the gay” or treating homosexuality as a disease. They say such “cures” don’t work and can often cause harm.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homosexuality-cure-masters-johnson

“Stott mentions Mark 10:6-9 “But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become on flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together let man not separate”. God joined together male and female, all other variants are separation and sin against God.”

>>> All other variants are sin? So what if a hetersexual couple cannot have children for some reason? Is that sin too? I find it a stretch to extrapolate Jesus’ words here into the various ideas you present.

“And if there are no created homosexuals then there are no problems you mention.”

>>> The question of whether God created homosexuals is a mute point. The point I make in my #1 reason is that there are many laws condemning homosexuals (or suspected homosexuals) to death or life in prison.

“(And by the way you haven’t answered one of my questions: why are there homosexuals only in some places of the world? I mean that they are mostly only in some “sinful” parts, big and wealthy cities of western countries. Does God give same-sex orientation to people only who are born in those parts?)”

>>> Statistics on the LGBT community are very suspect. I think the LGBT community exists in many parts of the world. Why would certain cities be places where the LGBT community gathers? Well one reason is that they will be killed or imprisoned in several parts of the world. Some cities, such as San Francisco in America, provide a safe haven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

“I admit that the problem exists and that there are homosexuals in this world. But it comes not from birth, nor from God, but from human sinfulness, from the atmosphere a child grows in.”

>>> Yes, the LGBT people exist. I don’t think they are a problem though. A lot of people don’t even acknowledge that! It is like UBF people not even acknowledging that we former members are alive…

“And that’s why I believe God will judge and condemn those responsible for the involving children into such an atmosphere of sin.”

>>> I’m not sure what your point is here. I would agree that involving children in any kind of sexual activity is wrong and judged by God.

“Christians should not look for a way to accept homosexuals and let them free from guilt and condemnation.”

>>> Why not? When the Bible says there is no condemnation in Jesus, why exclude homosexuals?

“Christians should create a healthy atmosphere in their communities and help those in sin to come to graceful Jesus who is able to save them from any sin.”

>>> Agreed. But what solution is there then for the homosexual person? I find two God-approved solutions: marriage and celibacy. I say these two solutions apply to all human beings, including the LGBT community.

“Dr Ben wrote recently about prostitutes who flocked to Jesus. I am sure that Jesus saved them from their sins and made them new creation in Him, not just forgave them and blessed them with a license to freely live in sin.”

>>> Yes, but did they all just stop sinning immediately? Some, I am sure, remained prostitutes all their life. And certainly Jesus did not condemn them automatically to hell.

I am re-thinking and re-evaluating everything about my faith. As I read through this again, I am still convinced of these reasons. Reason #1 stands by itself as reason enough for me.