Yes George Koch is awesome :) Check out the “What readers are saying” on George’s blog for a ubfriends shout-out! What We Believe and Why

George was in the ACT3 cohort I participated in. His thinking is astounding. AS and SS from ubf were in the class (as well as Ben and JY). George caused AS much trouble when George said he thought you could be a Christian and not believe the resurrection. That was unacceptable to AS (as it would be to those adhering to evangelicalism). But George’s point as that being a Christian is not about our correct doctrine–our essentials circle needs to be rather small in his opinion. I agree.

“It “feels” so much better to be poor in spirit (Mt 5:3), one who deserves nothing good, yet receiving “one blessing after another” (1984 NIV), or “grace in place of grace already given” (Jn 1:16; 2011 NIV) free of charge!”

I agree with you completely. I like the way Danny Vineyard states it in “American History X,”

“Life is too short to be pissed off all the time.”

* his description of heresy as an overemphasis on certain per ideas that, even if they are true, wreaks havoc in relationships

* his explanation of love, and how love transcends law

* that brilliant part of chapter 22 where he imagines two doors, one labeled “The Way to God” and the other labeled “Lectures About God”

* his examples of local churches that, even though they had very different views on issues that they thought were important (e.g. the role of women in ministry), supported and loved each other in the midst of disagreement

I look forward to reading and discussing A Fellowship of Differents on this website. I hope we can start soon.

“Everyone is screwed up, broken, clingy, and scared, even the people who seem to have it more or less together. They are much more like you than you would believe. So try not to compare your insides to their outsides. Also, you can’t save, fix or rescue any of them, or get any of them sober. “- Anne Lamott

I agree with what you say, “In theory, one can say that all Christians are part of the same big-C church. But in our actual experience of church, in our relationships with real people in real small-c churches, tribalism and sectarianism and divisions and ideological boundaries always seem to be present, and these things really do inhibit those relationships.” It’s so true local churches let us down real bad. I still haven’t finish McKnight’s book, but I hope he offers some advice on that.

This is likely going to sound “relativistic” and “not absolute” to some UBFers, but I desire that my expression of Christ be inclusive instead of exclusive and elitist, which was how I lived as a Christian for my first 25 years in UBF (1980-2005).

Though I likely fail far more often than I succeed, my quest for inclusivity is in my mind more gentle, gracious and generous than being exclusive, which invariably often involves being condescending toward others and judging others as being worse than you. It “feels” so much better to be poor in spirit (Mt 5:3), one who deserves nothing good, yet receiving “one blessing after another” (1984 NIV), or “grace in place of grace already given” (Jn 1:16; 2011 NIV) free of charge!

But in real life, it’s very hard to enact and experience this. Christian community happens through relationships in local small-c churches and denominations. Divisions and tribalism make it hard to get deeply involved in a local community while retaining a firm commitment and openness to big-C church.

Let me give you some examples from real life.

Sharon and I were deeply involved UBF for decades and were regarded as leaders within the organization. Yet when we began to learn from non-UBF sources and tried to apply what we were learning within the UBF context, we were treated with suspicion, labeled as proud/immature/bad influence etc. and the relationships we had with most people in UBF quickly went sour. The official UBF statement of Faith says: “10.We believe that the church is the body of Christ and that all Christians are members of it.” In theory, UBF leaders believe in the unity of the big-C church. But in fact, if you are not seen as upholding the ubf heritage and strongly promoting ubf-centric practices and values, you are going to be treated badly. And because West Loop and a few other chapters have this culture of openness, people from those chapters are regarded with suspicion and their opinions no longer matter in the organization.

As our relationships to ubf disintegrated, we began to participate in another local church that can be described as evangelical, Bible-oriented and conservative. At first, it seemed to go pretty well. But as they got to know us better, and they found out some of our views didn’t match up with theirs, our relationships got strained. For example: When Rob Bell was labeled as a false teacher and heretic because he had the “wrong” views on hell, we pushed back and said no, it’s unfair to say that Rob Bell is a heretic, and whether or not one ultimately agrees with him, he deserves to be listened to. That didn’t go over well. When we said that one can be a faithful Christian without reading Genesis chapter 1 literally, and that the scientific evidence for an old earth and for evolution are quite strong, that stirred up more trouble. Some (not all) people in the church began to look at us very suspiciously, as though we were not really part of their tribe, as though we were unsafe, because of the views that we expressed. It became harder and harder to stay with them, because it’s hard to have fellowship with people when you feel that you are being looked at with suspicious eyes.

Sharon and I have a great respect and fondness for the Roman Catholic Church, and we learn a lot from Catholic sources. (That alone causes some evangelicals to treat us with suspicion.) But it’s not possible to fully worship at an RC church and take communion there without becoming a Catholic in good standing, which involves committing yourself to accepting all sorts of other teachings (things we don’t necessarily believe) as dogma. And once you commit to Catholicism, you can’t really worship freely or take communion in non-Catholic settings.

I could go on and on with many more examples. My point is this. In theory, one can say that all Christians are part of the same big-C church. But in our actual experience of church, in our relationships with real people in real small-c churches, tribalism and sectarianism and divisions and ideological boundaries always seem to be present, and these things really do inhibit those relationships.

“Whoever loses their life for me will save it”- Luke 9:24
“The highest form of morality is not to feel at home in one’s home”- Theodor W. Adorno.

Thanks for the clarification Charles!
I think this means I need to make some clarification too.
I agree with you when you talk about the global living body of Christ Church. That is the Church I mean when I talk about Church. I talk about the big “C.”

Yes, I go to WL, which is part of UBF, but that does not mean my ultimate affiliation is with UBF. I bet if you ask any Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, etc. certain questions about their theologies, they will not agree with every little thing. Our man made theologies are lacking; they cannot contain God. They are flawed and filled with holes, but that does not mean we don’t stop trying and throw theology out the window. Theology is a language we use to communicate and learn more about God. God wants us to seek after him, though ultimately He is the one seeking after us.

There is always a sense of disorientation. But in the end we all are part of the same Church (big C) even though we don’t go to the same church/any church (little c) on Sunday, even if we didn’t live in the same language or live in the same country or agree about pre millennialism or amillennialism or whether women can be part of the liturgy or not.

Anyway, I don’t want to start preaching. So I’ll just stop here;)

A common question asked in UBF Bible studies on the cross and the follow me passages is: What is your cross? Some people said things like, children, work, hardships. Ultimately, it was about getting rid of everything that gets in the way of being a campus shepherd or marrying by faith. But the teaching lacked Christ and it lacked context. I wonder if any who attended this conference were asked this question in the Bible study and how they were led after answering.

So in this way UBF uses the words “follow me” and “take up your cross” to take on a whole other meaning that works to manipulate people do the UBF activities and give up all for the UBF cause for world campus mission. Again, I don’t find the apostles teaching “Follow me” or “Take up your cross” messages as we find at UBF conferences. They didn’t use the gospel stories where Jesus says, “Follow me,” the way UBF does. It keeps happening because of the trust people put into their teachers and shepherds so that they think it’s perfectly normal and biblical, when in fact it should be questioned.

It is interesting that you mention about the Hebrew meaning of following and relationship. I think a good discussion would start in trying to understand that in the context of the cross, the tool of death by extreme pain and humiliation. Surely, if someone took up a cross in Jesus’ day, they weren’t going to be putting it down and going home at the end of the day.

So, trying to define and follow Christ makes me think back to the article on defining the gospel, going back to understand just who the Christ is and what his message was: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/08/what-is-your-gospel/

That being said, my replies to people about going (or not) to church was meant to show how how the concept of church and being a Christian is very skewed, in my opinion. My impression from talking with people about my situation after leaving UBF was that a Christian means going to church every Sunday without fail, and that church is the place where you have a pastor who is your weekly teacher and somehow more connected to God than you, and it is there you are “fed.” I may be interpreting things too strictly and seeing UBF in them where they are not, but I think I am not too far from most of what I have seen in other churches. Note that these are mostly evangelical “non-denominational” churches. They all seem to have this similar air to them. Being a Christian is being involved with the church. But I believe this to be in the greater sense of Church, as the body of Christ in the world. It does involve worshiping and praying with other believers. It does involve loving and caring for the community, each other, and our enemies. It involves the witness of Jesus Christ. But I don’t think it involves the other baggage that many Christian assume come with it, such as the legalism and being against gays and pro guns, having a leader/pastor, mandatory tithing, etc. Christ is a living being, and where his body gathers is not a restaurant, though at times people may be fed, with real food and drink, and also with his presence and Spirit. So the church is his active, living body, moving in the world, not a place where its members get in a line or sit in chairs just to feed themselves with their own food over and over again.

Maybe I have formed an ideal vision of the Christian and Church that’s hindering me or maybe I’m just bitter and angry, but I’m severely disappointed and don’t want to get caught up in something very unpleasant again. I’m sorry that I spent my youth, years I can’t get back, in UBF. I’m sorry that I gave up what I did. And it’s troublesome at times because I did it with a clear conscience and a desire to be a Christian and seek God. But what I see from the church right now is not how I would define church or be reflective of the body of Christ (I am speaking very generally here and don’t want to dismiss the good out there). They don’t show Jesus that I read about in the Bible and, yes, I don’t want to be associated with them. What does that make me? A heathen, I guess! :) I’m now tired of thinking about and searching for church. Others have said that they hope I find the right church for me. I get the sentiment, but I think now that it should be more than just this local ministry or that organization.

I’m glad my posts get you thinking. My lit prof in uni always taught us to make titles that pop. I purposely give provocative titles just to get people to read my stuff.

I have one question. I don’t understand your comment: “I can’t define being a Christian as just being a follower of Christ. That is, it has to involve being about the Christ’s body, the church.”

But later you say, “So if I tell people I’m a Christian, the first question is, “What church do you go to?” Followed by, “You have to go to a church to be fed.” My replies is always, “Actually, I don’t. Church isn’t a restaurant.” I don’t want to be associated with churches today.”

Initially you say that a Christian is not an individual, but a part of a body, but later you say you don’t have to go to a church to be a Christian.

About the cross. I agree with you that the apostles teach Jesus’ cross. I am not pretending to be Jesus and take up his cross. That is not my place. He is the only one who can take up the cross. My job is to follow him. I interpret follow as: trust Him, keep my eyes on Him, as the bronze snake brought salvation to the Israelites when they looked to it. In Hebrew following/walking had the connotation of relationship, going through life together.

Another question the title of this article brings up is: How can one will themselves to be a Christian whether they want to or not? One’s faith is subjective. Trying to define a Christian is to big of a task for me, but I like posing questions.

There is a big difference between Steve’s books and the material published by UBF Press. Steve’s work has been read and appreciated by lots of people from many churches and campus ministries. As far as I can tell, material produced by UBF Press has been read and used by no one outside of UBF, and (except for Daily Bread) by very few within UBF for that matter.

This sounds like UBF Press at the Staff Conferences. I think the pushed subscription amount was something wonky like $500 / year. And this is for materials that many people have in other formats. But I can understand what Lutz may have been doing. His presentation was relatively short, to a new audience, and in a very limited capacity. It’s a taster of sorts since he isn’t a regular speaker for UBF. If you want to go further with his work, he’s directing you to his book.

Surely, without a doubt. It’s what I saw staff members do ever since guest speakers were invited to staff meetings. Without fail they were ready to shut all of them down as people who didn’t know any better because they hadn’t been through UBF, that is, unless they said something good or affirming about UBF.

I can’t define being a Christian as just being a follower of Christ. That is, it has to involve being about the Christ’s body, the church. To define it just at the individual level I think falls short of the greater work of Christ, past, present and future, and the narrative of the Bible story of God’s people and their king. But getting involved with churches is among my biggest regrets. I felt compelled to be Christian a few times, and I got burned bad.

UBF pushes the follow Jesus messages a lot. But they’re really used to bring people into the mold of a UBF shepherd. And that’s exactly what came to mind when you described the messages at this conference. It happened to me too. I thought that living as a UBF shepherd was what God wanted and had designed my life to do. And the more I think about it, the more I get angry and filled with regret for having been duped and manipulated, and to make it worse to have done it to others too. How did it happen? I wonder. But it happened when I felt compelled to be a Christian. Now, I don’t see much good about the church at large. There are a few good things that are compelling, such as the work of the reformation project that Brian’s posted about, the handful of writers from patheos that Joe references from time and time (and I see a lot of writings from them about the church body and disillusionment and so on), the work Pope Francis is doing. And even these people, as much as they attempt to honestly look at the current state of the church they are bombarded with hateful messages mostly by people calling themselves Christians. So if I tell people I’m a Christian, the first question is, “What church do you go to?” Followed by, “You have to go to a church to be fed.” My replies is always, “Actually, I don’t. Church isn’t a restaurant.” I don’t want to be associated with churches today. I don’t want to be part of a place where the pastor’s first message is just explain that he’s not hating people, he’s really loving them. If there is that kind of confusion regarding your actions, it might not be love and might really be hate. How many people in the gospel stories did Jesus have to give such an explanation to?

Your article also prompted me to think about whether this message of “Follow me” is apostolic. Honestly, I can’t find it in the apostles’ writings. UBF teaches about Jesus’ cross so that you can take up your cross–it’s really about your cross. The apostles teach Jesus’ cross. Christian teaching just seems out of control and far away from being apostolic–in the name of being biblical, ironically.

Once, a messenger in the LA chapter said that young people today are committing suicide because they don’t obey Moses’s Law. (This was said in reference to Luke 4, Jesus’ temptation.) That’s ridiculous!

The audience seemed very receptive, but also tired. Later I will write a critique of the conference, but I think Lutz’s words weren’t able to be processed fully because there was so much going on. Basically from 7am-10 pm, there were early morning messages, GBS, testimony writing, lectures, life testimonies, mission reports, etc. I felt as though there was never a moment to process what we were learning. If the focus is campus ministry focus on that, if it is world mission, focus on that. There were 10 different directions the conference could have gone and they were all bundled in one. Only 160 of the 600 attendants were students. There were babies and middle school and high school. It basically was a conf for anyone and everyone.

Another point about Lutz was I felt there was a lot of marketing for his book. Like he was just there to sell his book. I don’t know him personally and I never got to talk to him one-to-one, so maybe I’m making an unfair judgement, but that was something I noticed. I personally wish he had led a workshop so that we could have a more dynamic Q and A session. But that’s my personality, I prefer interacting with the information instead of being lectured at.

Short and sweet post – http://stephenlutz.net/2015/07/06/this-is-why-we-read-preach-and-teach-the-whole-bible/ Why it is wise to teach/preach from the WHOLE Bible and not just from the SAME select parts/verses/passages repeatedly: “The Spirit guides the preacher who wants to be a vessel for his work. He takes seemingly LESS RELEVANT PASSAGES and applies them directly to those who need to hear them.” (CAPS mine.)

http://stephenlutz.net/2015/05/27/the-three-words-that-will-help-students-become-more-committed/

But he still shouldn’t say that fishing doesn’t work. He ought to show more respect to God’s servants. He needs humbleness training.

Outside of God, we are nothing because only in God do we have meaning. To walk out on God is to walk into nothingness.

I don’t mean to say non Christians have no value, because Jesus died for them too. More concretely I say that any person not following Christ is moving away from what is into what is not, and in that nothing they become something less than human- not in dignity but in the sense they are not what they were made to be. Those who follow Jesus gain God, and with Him truth, they become as intended and go beyond man.

Forests can answer for himself, but what I think is that in Christ, his followers have been promised an abundant, overflowing life to the full (Jn 10:10b). Therefore, without Christ, by extrapolation, life would ultimately be experienced in reverse.

My 3rd book, Unexpected Christianity, is all about following Jesus and what that meant to me in various parts of my journey of faith. I followed Jesus out of the cultic ubf lifestyle: “At one point in my life, I thought I had Christianity all figured out. I felt the twinge of pride as I “kept the faith” while people around me seemed to abandon their mission from God. I did everything I could to “present myself to God as one approved”. I went to Russia as a short-term missionary. I amassed over fifteen thousand hours of bible reading. I missed only three Sunday services in twenty four years. And then it all fell apart. The fabric of my faith unraveled. The spirit of my mission decomposed. And the walls of our community collapsed. What follows are the stories of how I came to realize that Christianity is more powerful than believing something, more grand than doing something, and far deeper than being something. Christianity is about following someone. And that Someone will lead us to some very unexpected places.” pg 6

I also followed Jesus outside the gates of Christendom. I am not part of the visible church.

Why am I a Christian? I only call myself a Christian because a gay man welcomed me, listened to me and worshipped with me. Matthew Vines and the Reformation Project people restored my identity as a Christian. If there is anything Christ-like in me, it is only because you may be seeing a glimpse of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Why am I not a Christian? Many have told me I am not a Christian because I fully welcome LGBTQIA people, I support samessex marriage, and because I do not go to church, I do not have daily prayer or mediation times, I do not believe the church is the Bride of Christ, I do not make any effort to obey God’s laws, and because I never tell people I am a Christian.

Finally, MJ, you mentioned “Words like “submission” and “self-denial” are very unpleasant for me. I am afraid of losing my identity.” I love those words. I love submission and self-denial. And I will never again lose my identity. I am “me”. I love learning to submit to Jesus my Lord. I eagerly seek to deny myself in order to follow Him to the unknown, to the marginalized and to the great adventure of my life!