It is simply just so very sad and unfortunate that that those who are abusive, authoritarian, unaccountable, contemptible, condescending and arrogant, that are causing endless pain and wounds to genuine and sincere UBF Christians, simply because those “despicable” missionaries believe that it is their absolute God-given right to “control their sheep” according to their own agenda and expectation.

http://www.priestlynation.com/f-a-c-t/

I just have to say after this week’s private discussions with some former members that some Korean ubf missionairies are the most despicable human brings I’ve encountered. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, then thank God you don’t have to experience the guilt and shame and threats that some ex ubf people endure.

Noah’s son disobeyed spiritual order by pointing out his drunkenness.

Rebekah was right in lying because it was God’s will for Jacob to be heir.

We should not date and marry whomever God’s servant presents to you like Issac and Rebekah.

We should marry a “shepherdess” because Rebekah was (she was?…)

The story of Noah teaches us that one man’s vision can save many.

Cain’s crime was not giving enough to God.

I did note. That the pride of the builders of the tower of babel was mostly skipped over. Those who tried to build a kingdom for their own glory. My testimony focused on how the pride of mankind dooms itself and how I need to be ever watchful. The response I got was dismissive, the person mentioning that the focus was on the faith of one man who saved many. I explained that I felt the tower of babel is a more important story.

Yellowblossom: “how would be best to act now?”

As Ben points out, the exciting news is that YOU get to decide! Yes YOU! You get to decide how to live YOUR life.

I might hint and suggest submitting articles to ubfriend about your thoughts on my 3 books :)

For example, things I’ve spent my time on recently:

– helped pack 7,000 pounds of beets for the needy
– watched my boss rapell down the side of a building
– talked and prayed with Randy Reese, founder of VantagePoint3
– worshipped and talked and cried with Matthew Vines
– played Skip Bo with my family
– enjoying becoming more and more family-centered!
– went to a romantic hide-away resort with my wife :o

The problem I do have is when I’m told to honor and have compassion for missionaries’ for their suffering simply because they are missionaries. I did not, nor anyone else I know, ask any missionaries to go to a foreign land to “save” me and suffer for me. I can appreciate what has been done. But don’t go somewhere, invite people into a group, and then when those people speak about how this group has hurt them turn and demand that they be honored and respected for their great sacrifice, acting as if they’re a victim suddenly and others are not. It’s a convenient way of getting praise and honor in good times and in times of suffering and not being concerned about the people that were being “saved.”

On top of this protocols, we may need to add more steps as a body of Christ.

I don’t think this has been said by the same person. You seem to believe that all UBF critics must have the same opinion (out-group homogeneity effect), but you need to understand that there are different people here who have different opinions. Personally I think UBF should repent, I have always said so and never changed my opinion. First step however is that UBF admits the abuse and rehabilitates the reformers, starting with the Korean senior shepherds of 1976.

Thanks HP for posting this. Sometimes I think it would be helpful to meet in person. If you ever visit Germany and want to talk with me, le me know. Maybe we can arrange something.

May I remind you that this is a public forum? You answered David publicly, so I can add my opinion publicly as well.

——
The Forgiveness Protocol

1. Say you are sorry.

2. Make an inventory of how your behavior might have hurt or harmed someone. Ask that person if the list is complete, and correct your list to reflect a complete account of the costs of your behavior.

3. Say you are sorry again. Be prepared to say this many times.

4. Tell the other person exactly how you understand the costs of your behavior, and allow the other person to vent, elaborate, or reiterate as needed so that the other person really feels heard.

5. Clarify with the other person if the behavior was a simple accident, a mistake, a mistaken calculation of costs and benefits, or a deliberate deed. This part is not easy and takes time and attention. “Thoughtlessness” is one of the most common sources of problems, and may reflect recurrent self-centeredness. Intentional acts of revenge or malice also require great insight to acknowledge.

6. Humbly ask forgiveness. Describe your inner state of guilt, remorse, sadness, grief, anger or whatever.

7. Describe what you have learned from the incident. Show insight and awareness, or yourself and your mistake, and the other person and his/her pain.

8. List what you will do or change to avoid a repetition of the incident.

9. Clarify what penalties to expect if you make a mistake, or transgress again. Discuss what each of you will do to avoid a repetition.

10. Say you are sorry, yet again.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pura-vida/201105/the-forgiveness-protocol-how-apologize-when-you-have-hurt-or-harmed-another

I believe Joe, Ben Brian and others at ubfriends will stand with your family and speak for you against Samuel lee while other good missionaries are keeping sacrificing themselves for ubf ministry or for themselves.

HappyPinnky, Welcome! Thank you for getting involved in the dialogue. No matter how people are rubbed by your comments at least you have become transparent and we have learned more about you, your objective to participate and also some insights that you might bring.

Now:
I don’t think Brian was trying to make racial comments by uploading the voice message. He clearly provided an email from 2011 telling him to communicate by email and then when he raised a sensitive topic in 2012 was probably emailed not to send any more mail. After that, he was called with a voice message telling him it was a warning, but he was not told what the warning was for, only just that his correspondence had gotten to sensitive in nature. He was not told about forthcoming consequences either, just about a warning.

I only regard the multi-cultural matter with moderate recognition. Okay, so, the experience is experience. It was not read in a book somewhere. I too am multi-cultural. First, I have mixed parents…one British and one East European. I grew up in Canada and never really accepted the local culture, but of course I have a closer outlook to a Canadian, while still having an understanding for the home countries.

For the past four years I have lived in Korea with my wife and children. Yes, I am still part of UBF. Yes, I experienced many terrible things back in Canada UBF. Many of which I cannot excuse, however, I will say this. I am always thankful for the day I met the missionary who came to invite me to Bible study in 2002. I love him and his family despite problems that we had over the years. But, I cannot accept UBF the system and institution. In ignorance, abuses occur and only the people involved are to blame. However, we have come to a time and place when cover ups and silences, even law suits to keep people quiet….these have gone on for too long!

Some want corporate repentance and others want UBF to be shut down. You cannot undermine people on account of experience as a director’s kid. In many cases, the people here have a greater respect for you, because they can only begin to imagine your upbringing and experience. But, such respect will be lost if in fact you don’t listen up. Listening, can be frustrating due to the repetitive complaints and comments etc…

But this is not new. When I first joined online in 2012 it was the same atmosphere and topics. In fact yellowblossom has been going through some of the old articles and threads and has had her eyes opened that NO! No, she is not alone. Many other people experienced the same things and also agree that it is not right.

I don’t want to discuss church and missionary history, because too much of it is interconnected with national superiority. Historical events are marred by cultural supremacy over others, even in the name of God. But, UBF has been going since a new, more recent period and should at least make an effort to remove elements of Korea at the interactive level among foreign countries. I already said before about corporal punishment being normal and acceptable until the previous government just prior to Park.

In Korea, my life has not been the easiest and I do understand Korean somewhat, but I have no time to prepare language due to my children and daily duties at work etc…I also had more than 10 years of intensive preparation back in Canada including, my work, friendly relationships, landlord and yes, UBF. Through many things I have experienced Korean culture…I can usually see where Christian culture and Korean culture meet. I have even lived with my mother-in-law on more occasions than I can count.

I don’t want to express my qualifications to dialogue about intercultural matters. Please take heed of Chris. He did and he will always call you to position your eyes on the reform movements of the past. They were parented by Koreans and not foreigners. People in other countries just add to the support, but the actual initiatives are found among the Koreans themselves. Which means that there is and always will be a disagreement about how to address matters of spirituality that do not necessarily cut across cultural differences.

Anyway, I am very long, but I am out of the loop. I am in a different time zone and cannot join in when everyone is chatting…so, regretfully, I am a late! Thank you very much HP! We need more dynamic in this dialogue and the beauty here has been found in your growing transparency and present desire to respond. Nothing has been worse in the past couple of weeks than the silences surrounding many topics that have been raised since the reply to Joe’s letter.

I have also had things in my life which I mixed with my identity in a way that was not wise. I apologize to you, if you do feel actually offended because I have not understood who you really are. We all have idols in our lives, and it’s not in any wisdom for me to look down on you.

May I suggest something: I think people in UBF have allowed UBF to take a very unhealthy position in their identity. If you are in UBF, why are you afraid of being overly critical about it? It is just an organization you are in, and God may call you out of it to join another. When you chose to become a Christian, was UBF part of the story? Come on, God forbid. So if not, why is it so interwoven in your identity now?

I think it is because of this that many are offended in UBF. It’s because such a deep part of them that they can’t bear to see analyzed. And that is what differs from people here, people here don’t see that way about UBF anymore, and they will be free to say what is on their minds.

If what I’m saying is true, please suggest to me how anyone here can make this place more accomodable to people in UBF. If UBF is so dear to you, how can we say anything about it? There is nothing we can do.

Do you think it’s right for UBF to be so close in our identity?

You ask: why don’t they talk to the person directly.

Many have, but there is a reason why your suggestion of honesty won’t work in UBF. The reason is because UBF missionaries will not stand to the idea that their sheep are accusing them of anything. Can you imagine the conversation?

“Before we study Matthew again in this 1-1 Bible study, I would like to say that I think you a spiritual abuser. Let’s stop doing 1-1 and talk about this”.

You have to be really blind to think that this works in a culture like UBF.

1. It’s true that conversations got bit ugly at times and sometimes way to blunt. I for one got emotional. But, specifically thank Ben and David for having a composure of a gentlemen and almost always interacting in a calm and very pleasant manner. These are the qualities I would like to learn for future.

2. I am touched by Ben’s genuine desire to listen to people and their pain. In other words, compassion.

3. I also want people to know here that I genuinely care for their well being. I’m thankful to people like Joe who despite their popularity and recognition dared to challenge old systems and wrongs, and as long as I stay, I hope to promote Christ in all things. But it will take time and perhaps painful moments. I can never compare my experience with those of Ben, Joe, and Brian knowing the countless hours and experiences they had within UBF, only The Lord can fully understand the sweat and labor you did.

4. I hope that Lord will bless you all abundantly in this life and in next.

5. May you all forgive me for my immature attitude at times. I will work on myself.

I need to repent much today as well.i do get emotional, but that is a great suggestion.

I think that you all would agree that arguing back and forth with people on this site is not accomplishing anything. And it seems as though you both are spending a considerable amount of time crafting responses to some of the comments. My suggestion, totally up to you, would be to spend that time instead writing an article which explains some of the positive changes you’ve seen in the ministry.

HappyPinnky, it seems as though you want to remain anonymous, so perhaps you can’t speak on specifics in your chapter. Nevertheless, I think that you can speak about events in some detail and omit identifying information like dates, the names of place and people, etc. I personally would love to hear accounts of positive developments in UBF. Also, since you seem to be well-informed about inter-cultural issues, why not write an article on this? You could share a lot from your own personal life experiences. I am actually very interested to learn about this topic and I think that you could provide us with some valuable insight.

We may never see eye-to-eye, but I promise that I will listen and respond with feedback in a charitable manner.

And this is from your very first comment in this forum:

“Are you guys this idiotic?” – http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/05/04/two-things-i-want-to-say-to-every-sheep/#comment-18096

Nice communication skills ya got there.

“Nobody can control anybody. Have you ever tried?”

Yes many in ubf have tried and succeeded in controlling people. It is called cult manipulation, B.I.T.E. model and Lifton’s criteria for abuse. It happens all the time at ubf. We have hundreds of documented cases publicly available. There is also the Stockholm effect.

Have you heard of the term brainwashing? Do you know where that term originated? Guess what– Americans captured in China and Korea during the Korean war suddenly turned against America and claimed they made their “own decision”. Such prisoners in Korea were able to be returned to their normal state when removed from the sleep deprivation, indoctrination and shaming.

The same observable and quantifiable evidence can be found at many ubf chapters.

I agree with what you say.

I have also seen examples those who for all wrong reasons, yet they want to blame the system.

HP, I apologize for telling you to “go smoke your pipe somewhere else”. I think that I speak for everyone here when I say that you’re free to smoke your pipe here if you like. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. No, seriously, I have no ill will toward you. Thank you for the illuminating dialogue. Be well. – David

In that case I I sit that everyone gets banned for a while except for Ben, cause I can say a that his composure and way of interaction is Christ like.

In think others have violated policies more than me. Or do ubf critics get more quota?

You should know that when they said that they were abused, many of them did bad things in ubf and left ubf saying bad things against ubf.

And some of them couldn’t do the ministry successfully and blame ubf system and Korean missionaries for their failures. Some of them don’t say harsh words but pretend very intellectual and enjoy other teammates say violent words.

Think about it.
If they were abused for long time, why didn’t they talk to the person directly. They all were in America, not in Korea. They were mostly Americans, not Koreans.
I also have been seeing many Americans here. But, I couldn’t dare abuse anyone. I couldn’t force anyone to marry against their will. Even in Korea, it is not possible at all.

In America, we all have free will. Nobody can control anybody. Have you ever tried? But I saw this, a person hated a pastor because the pastor didn’t listen to the person and the person’s idea. The person left ubf and say that ubf is full of darkness and evil.

Of course, not all the cases. I don’t know which one is true and which one is lie. Many of them lie and manipulate their story. I also saw some cases with my own eyes, but those cases were not by the leaders. And because of those cases, you call ubf cult. It is absurd.

I know this might offend these people and they will pour out so many bad words against ubf again.

But, honestly, this is how I felt while I have been here. Many people are blindly criticizing ubf and don’t accept other opinions at all. They don’t want to discuss about how to resolve the cases. But, they just say, “I am abused, I am abused. So, you should be punished.”

This is my rude opinion.
However, I apologize to those who were really hurt and abused.

We all have violated some of our commenting policies at different times. But you have violated ALL of our commenting policies repeatedly since you joined recently.

Please take a timeout and re-consider how you are interacting here. We will tolerate breaking some of these policies, but not all of them.

Commenting Policies

Anyone who visits this site is welcome to post comments, but we reserve the right to remove material that does not conform to the following guidelines.

Be concise. Avoid long-winded comments, and do not include large sections of text from other sources or from other pieces that you have written. If there is something lengthy that you want to say, consider submitting it as a contributed article.

Be humble, and don’t preach.

No matter how right you think you are, you may still be wrong.
Be kind.

Do not post anything that a reasonable person may regard as obscene, offensive, hurtful, mocking, demeaning or condescending. Welcome others.

Many people are shy about posting their views in public because it makes them vulnerable to criticism. Allay their fears, and accept newcomers into the fellowship of this website with grace.

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Comment on the substance of what has been actually said, not on the person who said it, nor on what you believe may be a hidden meaning or motivation behind what has been said.

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I don’t know what admin found so insulting ?

I meant that I laughed at the abuse you thrown at me, but is genuinely inquired whether you knew such person, whose book was a great piece of spiritual strength to me.

I hope I did not insult you in anyway.

Men, I love I get all kinds of labels, son of abuse, son of oppression, put your head your head in the ass, go smoke a pipe, glorious ubfer,

Where is admin in all this.

Ha I forgot, this place got hijacked.

Unfortunately, I am losing the respect I had for you. I’m offended at how you are so harsh at me for inquiring why I’m being called a son of abuse which to me sounds like same as son of a b.

Being called the son of oppression and abuse is okay?

I just wanted to ask if her husband authored the book that I like. Is that a lowly question to ask? Why?

Ben I think you need to work on being more balanced in your rebukes. Maybe you should also rebuke bekka for harsh words as well. Don’t you think?

For what? For what shall I be banned?

I was just curious cause I read a book called crossing the Red Sea by Andrew Martin and wanted to make a compliment on that book. I was touched. Why would be banned?

Are you a wife of Andrew Martin?

Beka

That made me laugh seriously.

May I remind you that the “U” in UBF and UBFriends stands for “university”? So it should be fair to assume some literacy.

If you don’t know certain logical fallacies, then it’s a good opportunity for you to learn. Today, it’s very easy – Wikipedia can help you when you don’t know a word or a concept. All of us here on UBFriends are learning a lot through these discussions. And “being willing to learn” was one of the core virtues a good UBF sheep was expected to have.

Ok fine HappyPinnky. But how are we supposed to deal with their verbal abuse? financial abuse? sexual abuse? How about their shunning and publicly shaming our friends? I watched over 100 of my friends be shamed out of ubf and I sat by doing what you say, thinking I was so righteous.

Do we just stand by quietly praying while the plane crashes into the mountain like the Korean airlines’ pilots?

Well just about 100% of those who left do not want an apology. What we want is repentance. What we want is honesty. What we want is acknowledgment. Oh and we do not want to be called stupid, blind, foolish pigs just because we do not glorify ubf.

That’s rub, isn’t it mrkim and HappyPinky? The ONLY thing you care about is if we ubfrienders glorify ubf or at least shut up and go away.

Well I for one will never glorify ubf. I will only shut up when the Spirit tells me to.

Well the only bashing, mocking, insults, namecalling has come from HappyPinnky and mrkimmathclass. They are the ones calling someone a “pig” or “stupid”.

Sure. The most sacrificial people are at the very bottom of the pyramid-shaped UBF hiearchy however (yes, there are also Koreans at the bottom). These are not the people about whom we complain. If you get to the top of the pyramid, you meet people who did not work with their own hands for nearly their whole life – like Samuel Lee, who lived in a large house paid by the ministry, sent his children to elite universities from whatever money, had people who did everything for him, and never went to Africa or an Islam country as a missionary, but considered the rich 1st world nations at that time, US and Germany as his mission fields in the 1970s. Another example is Peter Chang, who owns several houses though he never had a proper job in Germany. My chapter director also quit his job and lived with his family from offering money. And that despite the fact that he was the one who did the least work in our chapter. He did not even go “fishing” or 1:1 studies like all the others. Nor did he write or share weekly sogams. He was always exempt. The abuse usually oritinated from these people who had too much time at their hands which they used to control and manipulate and “train” other people.

You also assume that everyone who was left ubf and is hurt is the victim. Who deserves apology. And in this case you assume that ubf is the abuser.

There is truth that some left with pain and were hurt. But also many who left are a users themselves.

Do you know of any atrocious things some did when the left? You guys probably aren’t aware of any stories of how sheep mistreated Sheperds or missionaries. Maybe it’s time to dig up those as well.

Ben I can say for church

80 percent who left don’t deserve any apology

10 percent who left deserve an apology

10 percent I’m not sure

If you are so insistent on ubf apologizing, them gather up ex members so that we can mutually apologizing time and conference. That will work better.

But of course, there are those who have left and they deserve sincere apology.

I would go to abused and tell him to repent and hand him over to police. Whether he repent or not is his problem.

I would listen to her for a good period of time, but if she does it for years and years, I would think she needs to encounter The Lord. This what Ravi Zacharias was saying.

My mom was almost died in hospital three times because of idiotic doctors. She choose to let it go in name of Jesus and now she is a happy and healthy women.

I don’t the evidence that people who pour out here we getting better at all.

Yes. Listening is important but not when it goes on for years. Merely listening won’t do anything.

Ultiamatley, I would tell my loved one, let go of it. I would do that to myself.

The more you think and reflect the more that person or memory has power over you.

Il repeat myself for fourth time.

I am not at all against bashing or criticizing.

My point is ” look, those inside who listen and who do not listen are sickly aware of what critics are saying okay” ? I was with you, not anymore, because as someone who wants things to be changed desperately, I am completely sick of the way you guys do it. No one in this world wants to be called cult and expect the person to listen.

Ben for example, if I constantly called you an ” idiot, bastard, oriental monkey and holler my lungs at you etc” ( I would never say it).

Would you ever listen? Tell me?

That is kind of criticism I often see here.

The Problems I see are two.

1. Incessant bashing.

2. Mocking and insults.

My point is I heard enough I heard from Chris for more than a decade. I can give oral presentation on what’s Brian said on this forum.

I have spent 4 hours today on this forum chatting and most you spend 20 times more. This is not Normal.

So if people are aware of what is being said for over decades, why repeat yourself.

Is this forum for enlightenment or for vomiting?

Like Samuel Lee did?

Are you ever going to say, suggest or hint to her that she is “bashing” her abuser, or “whining” about what her abuser did to her?? Or that she should “just get over it” and “move on” with your life and relationships??

First, is this a reason for UBF for to apologize for their abuse?

Second, have a look at some examples from the Catholic church:

* http://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-ask-for-forgiveness-from-sex-abuse-victims-1404749252
* http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/22/world/pope-asks-czechs-to-forgive-sectarian-wrongs.html
* http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/marchweb-only/23.0a.html
* http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-13/news/mn-1319_1_slave-trade
* http://www.religionnews.com/2014/07/28/pope-francis-apologizes-persecution-pentecostals/

You can find examples from other churches in the book Ecclesial Repentance.

If you don’t understand the necessity of ecclesial repentance, please go back to studying the Bible, and stop doing mission until you understand it.

When I and others tried to express to Mr. Kim how rude and disrespectful his comments sounded, you then accused us of “laughing at him,” when that was not at all what I attempted to do.

It seems to me that you are just determined to call anyone who shares some abuse from ubf as “bashing” and “whining,” and anyone who tries to correct a ubf missionary as “laughing at them.”

Maybe you do not realize what you are intending to communicate, but this is what it seems to me. Is it just me??

That is why I loved coming here. It was fun and inspiring to talk about things.

But you you know it yourself that this website has really changed. Instead of talking about how to encourage one another, there is more bashing than before.

Even second gens who are not korean and want change talk about how they won’t come here until some people stop hijacking this place.

I got angry today, because of the immature way Brian and did to this missionary.

I dont know this missioanry, but they way you guys laugh at him is so wrong.

I would encourage those who laughed, trying going to foreign country and learn the language. And speak at the level he did.

I don’t think I want to engage here anymore, because I’m not getting anything of use.

As David and Ben already explained, it’s the matter of missionaries ot find out what the expression of love is in their mission field, not to blame the culture that they are trying to target for not understanding them.

But the real answer that needs to be given here, and I did this already hundred times on this website, is that in reality people know pretty much what love and abuse is, not much different in Korean culture. That’s why it were Koreans who complained about the abuse. All the three reform movements of 1976, 1989 and 2001 were driven by Koreans, and their major complaint was spiritual abuse. So stop fooling around with us. This is not a matter of culture, but a matter of spiritual abuse. Read the open letter of 1976 and then come back.

In my opinion, based on my opinion and what I see, much of the discussion on this forum is related to trying to re-understand what the gospel is, and trying to understand what we thought we already knew and just assumed. I unfortunately am not diligent enough right now to give you a link to something here, but really they do exist and can be easily found.

Things like what is grace, sin, the Holy Spirit, and its relational effect in our lives, I have to be honest, are not talked about at all in a meaningful way in UBF. And they are pondered on here. And of course, people here will comment on their prior understanding while in UBF (which is the part which you may find distasteful).

I am willing to bet if you were engaged in the pure biblical discussion of these past topics, you would get a lot of good out of it.

If you are an example of what recovery looks like, I hope and pray that I do not recover.

Being multicultural, in some ways it does have leverage. I’m not trying to impose my superiority, just my multinational observation.

Peter

I people here getting healed through criticizing for years and axes, then great. But I doubt that is the way Christ want us behave.

It’s my opinion. So far, I have seen those who left and who got healing. Their way was different.

If you believe me ask trained psychologists. They would affirm.

So far I don’t think people here have found complete healing and joy. Not all of course.

I pray the do though even for Charles, even though he is a bit mean.

I do think their pains are real. I hope and pray that their life can shine more than ever before.

How should people “not dwell” on the pain? Would you say by no longer reading or posting on this website?

Do you feel that the main purpose of the collection of articles on this article are mainly about dwelling on the past pain?

“I would recommend you to avoid ubf draining your life.”
Good advice. That’s one reason why I left.

“Those inside will take care of internal people.”
Why do you assume this? Really, you act like no one here has been on the “inside.” We were “those inside.” Your assumption is stinky and unfounded.

“Sorry for being multicultural, directors son, and studying bible with mother Barry.”
More stink right here. These are not unique qualifications, nor do they put you above everyone else who has years of experience on you.

Yes, because of I was directors son, I don’t think I even had the same pain as you did.

I recently rebuked a senior leader for favoring second gens over others, and this man to my surprise said that une should repent of this.

But Peter, I am not annoyed by people saying bad things. If anything I’ve said tons of bad things.

But what is worse, is when people keep on dwelling on it.

Couples years ago I suffered from OCD about my body part. It literally ate me for 2 years. On,y when I stopped looking in a mirror for 1 year, did in get healed and no longer brothers me as much.

Same here. I don’t know people here, but pain is real and I am afraid that the more they dwell, it will get worse.

Don’t think of me as mr. Pro ubf. Ubf has huge defects, and sometimes I ask myself why I’m here. But at the same time, I try to love it señorita leaders, and young people people equally, but it’s hard.

I would recommend you to avoid ubf draining your life.

Life is short so you told them once, 2, 3. So now it’s time to take care of your life. Those inside will take care of internal people.

Oh by the way I’ve never put my head in my ass. It won’t fit. And it stinks there

Sorry for being multicultural, directors son, and studying bible with mother Barry. I shouldn’t have disclosed such details.

Mother Barry said that to you, but Jesus did not say that. See Matthew 5:23-24. Oh yeah and that new command Jesus gave (John 13:34). Those words by Sarah Barry are just a cop out from paying attention to the hurt and lives of real people because then real abuses would have to be admitted and confronted.

I tried to bear the hurt too, and bring to Jesus so to speak. I did this multiple times, and I could go on. At one point, things just went broke because the same things kept coming back.

Now I don’t mean to sound holier and thou, but things like being attacked physically by groups I don’t find as aggravating by what I went through. It says in Proverbs, if a man’s body is weak, his spirit sustains him. But a crushed spirit who can bear? (paraphrase) The pain that ex UBFers feel is much deeper than physical pain. Think more of the book of Job.

To be very honest with you now: I don’t think UBF’s apologies will really decisively bring healing. In a sense, God is at the helm of everything, if you belong to Him. In the book of Job, the hurt Job found comfort in a vision of God’s amazing wisdom, and not through his miserable comforters apologizing.

But there are some who will take all this and say therefore you should no longer say anything against UBF, and that all these criticism are wrong. Don’t you find this insensitive? Is it a wonder why UBFriends posters don’t react positively to this line of thinking?

Your efforts were not aimless. They did not change then, but I hope they will change.

I’m sure Gods reward will be great.

I respect a lot American and British missionaries who came to Korea, by the way if you got to. Korea Ubf they will make you visit American missioanry graves and pay tribute. Seriously.

What is interesting is that when first American missionaries came, no matter how hard they preached, nothing seemed to change. Yet, decades after revival began.

So yes, I do respect people like Joe, Brian and Ben for their sincere efforts in trying to improve things. I think those who stayed and trying to change are their fruits, and I mean it, although I do sound overtly harsh sometimes.

Who knows, I’m also living with the possibility that one day I’ll be also kicked out. But if that happens may that happen. But after experience on other ministries and churches, I am happy to be back for now. God knows what lies ahead.

Here’s an American saying for you, “Get your head out of your ass.”

Just leave the fierrrrrry judgment.

I would do that

I really did my best to bear with them. I don’t know what further I could have done. I did pray for them. I remember at one point doing this. I guess that time was not right. I made with my best effort trying to talk sense with them, but they couldn’t understand where I was coming from.

I’m no longer in contact with any of them. And yes I don’t have good feelings about them.

During UBF I tried to look past these things. But I couldn’t contain my conscience anymore, no matter how hard I tried.

Therefore, being able to read this forum had a great for help for me since I’ve left. I know you find this place rather mean, but I find it a place of honesty – I really do.

Yes, a lot people got hurt. I was also hurt in ubf and even more so outside of ubf, maybe that is why I came back.

But I remembers pondering upon my hurt, and it did not lead me to anywhere good. Only when I briught my pain to Jesus did I recover. I don’t know of people who hurt me still admit or not, and I don’t care to be honest. Because Jesus forgave me uncountable amount of sins, so why can’t I forgive 20 sins they commited against me.

I was attacked by racist gangs several times. I was spit at? Harassed and etc. In this country that I live. Yet,I chose to come back and even see the people who almost killed my parents and me with new eyes. And now I love them and now I serve them. I am not asking for their apologies. Because Jesus did it for them.

When I studied bible with mother Barry, this topic of anti ubefers came up. She admits that a lot mistakes happened and things that were wrong. Yet, she says that those who were hurt can only be healed by Jesus.

I too have seen how some Christians who are hurt hold on to that grudge for years and become un recognizable. That is the fate I don’t want for anyone even for fierce critics of ubf. A want them to receive ultimate healing to to shine in their loves for Jesus.

Our church recently rejoiced when one member who left bitter and was hurt is now starting a new reformed Calvinist church. Isn’t that great?

And I look forward to the day when we can all reconcile. But that time, is not to us, only God can decide that. Whether this will happen in our lifetime or in life to come.

Getting missionaries talk especially if you are a junior is hard. But there are ways. I don’t how I should explain this but it worked me number of times.

When I go to Korea, I feel the whole society is cultish, controlling, uniform it’s and etc. That’s why I don’t feel like korean although I am korean.

All I am aksing is, missionaries are aware of criticisms and rebukes. So now just gently pray for them and ask The Lord to open their blind spots,

Couples of years ago, I was doing exactly just that constantly criticising. Yet, that did not change anything.

Only, when I started listening and adminiring their positive sides, did they begin to change.

I don’t think the full extent of where UBF has gone wrong is realized yet. On your side, it may seem that things are improving. But you may not see our point of view. You may not understand we are saying needs to change.

People were really really hurt. The pain people have experienced from leaving is very great. And as long as the full extent of that pain is not understood by UBF members, but rather are ignored and dismissed with “We are already improving in ways that we can see”, then the pain remains.

As I said many times. I am in many ways with you in regards that ubf needs to improve.

But unlike you, I already see positive changes. So yes, even my dad who is considered an ultra in ubf said that ubfriends should exist, and when I urged him to take more of control, he insisted that younger natives should do so.

I’m also seeing this in other chapters around here. And I saw this in the states,

So why is bashing continuing.

Criticism is good even harsh is good. But not when you spend decades doing that.

That is my point. Why can’t we work hard in our chapters and in our communities and show the rest of ubf community what we should be like?

Like the reason why I respect Ben is that although I don’t agree on everything, he is trying to create a good model, so is Hyde park which I love and admire, and Waterloo.

Because this constant bashing only hardens peoples hearts and it’s harder for them to repent.

While I was in UBF, no I’ve never done that. I was truly under the impression in UBF that UBF missionaries really worked harder than I have and simply deserve a sense of respect that I don’t deserve. I question this now that I have been out of UBF.

I would find it hard to believe that UBF missionaries would share to me about their sense of failure while I was a UBF sheep. My shepherd who was close to me during Bible studies was mainly to go through the Bible study and that I learned what I was supposed to learn.

What am I actually supposed to ask in your suggestion? I mean the wording. “Sir, tell me how hard and heavy your life has been since you decided to be a shepherd.”. I already know they have a tough schedule of 1-1 Bible studies. And there are deep personal questions that are simply not thinkable of asking, Happy. I could never ask a random missionary about what they think of UBFriends. The moment I do, all eyes will come staring. If you ask why there are accusations of abortions in the ministry during lunch, goodness gracious you will stop the entire lunch.

That was how I honestly felt about the culture. Do you find this to be true for you? Are you comfortable with talking about UBFriends over lunch?

What do you mean they do not recognize their mistakes.
I have heard plenty of apologies and regrets From infamous Chicago center even.

I’m not aware of rally of augmentation. I just know ad hominem. People here are not as literate, cause we don’t have money to attend schools.

So I ask you speak simpler.