This comment you made is a great summary of why I’ve done what I’ve done the past 4 years:

“we were branded “unfaithful” and our UBF “family” had shunned us for protecting their own children and exposing the darkness in the UBF leadership/cult – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/04/30/why-i-say-ubf-is-a-cult/#comment-18528

We were told over and over at ubf “You are free to go, free to stay” But it was a lie. Many ubf chapter directors are narcissistic manipulators who need new recruits for their narcissistic supply. Challenge that supply, and you will find how downright evil they can become. They turn on you, showing their true wolf-nature.

That is why I decided to become a lambhearted lion. I am cultivating the heart of a lamb and letting my lion-like nature tear apart the KOPAHN ideology. Lord willing, I will spend the rest of my life doing that.

Welcome and thank you for sharing your experience. Your Korean perspective is so very helpful for all of us. The claim by some outside letters of recommendation and the claim by some ubfers is that the problems are just cultural misunderstandings. Your comment is more evidence that this is just not true. The problems are theological and human in nature.

I agree with this comment very much: “I thank God that I came to know God through UBF, and I love UBF people, but I cannot follow their teachings if they are against authentic Christianity. UBF people should know that there is only 1 church under God with Jesus as the Head”

When we left UBF the organization we thought we were all alone (we had already alienated our friends and family) — we were branded “unfaithful” and our UBF “family” had shunned us for protecting their own children and exposing the darkness in the UBF leadership/cult… however Ben, Joe S, Brian K, Jennifer E and others really stepped up and became Christ “in flesh” for us just by listening and giving us words of comfort as well as advice.

We are forever indebted to you guys and once again thank you because articles like these are so very important as many people who are abused sometimes have no voice nor do they have anyone else who is willing to relate to them because of fear.

For example when it comes to marriage, I do not have the typical Evangelical baggage that comes with making marriage the foundation of my entire theology. To Evangelicals, the Bride narratives are primary and paramount to all their thinking. To me, marriage was just “co-working” :) Of course now I am learning a more healthy view of marriage than what I was taught by ubf arranged marriage. But I can do that without the sex-centric theology that plagues Evangelicals typically.

Speaking of my books… the Kindle versions are still just 99 cents in May! Get ’em while they’re hot :)

BOOK 1 – Rest Unleashed: The Raven Narratives

BOOK 2 – Goodness Found: The Butterfly Narratives

BOOK 3 – Unexpected Christianity: The Penguin Narratives

The square refusal of tradition as BS is in fact suspicious. Traditions must not be overrated, but they have a value. Well, in one sentence he says “I can respect that tradition”, but then he should not say it is BS. It’s confusing.

Another point where I agree with Brian is that UBFers would also say they do everything voluntarily and not out of tradition, and that they have the priorities “God, family, and then UBF” (well maybe some would put UBF in front of family, but they would surely all put God first). However, the crux of the matter is that in a group like UBF, there is no difference. Everything you do in a UBF context is what you do for God, and vice versa, since UBF is by definition “the work of God”. Whenever my chapter director wanted to pressure me to take part in a UBF activity that was conflicting with something different, he always said I must put God first. So, “we put God before our group” becomes a meaningless phrase in a cult and such a statement does not indicate that a group is not a cult (it does not indicate that it is a cult either, but it’s a warning sign if a group needs to emphasize such a matter of course).

ubf promised the high reward of being trained to be a world-class leader… I became only a world-class chair-sitter.

This person says they respect tradition, but later disrespects tradition. My only point is that saying “tradition is BS” is a red flag that something’s not right. True, I don’t know what’s wrong and maybe nothing is wrong at Capoeira, but I’ve learned that no one can escape tradition because we make our own traditions. There was a time when I would have agreed that “tradition is BS” but now I’ve learned there is value in tradition, and even essential value to a community. Tradition can and should be questioned, even challenged, yes, but it has usefulness if made visible and public.

I hear ubf missionaries saying the exact same words above. It would be normal for me to hear someone at ubf say “you are free to come, free to go” and “Guys none of you had to be hear today. I didn’t force any of you to drive all those hours to be here. You are hear because you want to be. Don’t ever let anyone tell you “Oh this is tradition. You must like- do it this way.” Screw that. Anyone can make new “traditions”. Guys ubf is not the most important. It is God, family, and then if you want- ubf.”

“As Christians, the choice is up to us: we can either stand up and fight or lay down entirely. But we cent stay the same and expect the direction of our country to change”
– Dave Meyer

I don’t want to serve a director of a chapter. I want to serve Jesus and his people with love.

I personally understand because I did meet Jesus through UBF bible study. I did believe God sent me to UBF as shepherd. I did believe I should marry by faith. When someone teaches you testimony after testimony that this is God s calling it is hard to reverse that thinking. I was able to begin to reverse this thinking from last year. I thank God because he sent me people from the outside to help me open my eyes. He sent me amazing friends who wouldn’t give up on me. He sent me my parents and their support, and he sent me countless of comments on ubffriends, Brian’s amazing books, and finally God led me to a healthy church

God is good and mighty and His word tears down man built strongholds…especially the strongholds in our minds

Yes it is strange. It is also un-Christian.

“For the first time in years, I can breathe!”

Amen!!!

“What saddens me about the cult label, is that leaders in UBF had every opportunity to make changes.”

My sorrow in that regard is deep. I have spent hour after hour after hour after hour after hour praying for gospel-induced change–to no avail :<

I think that strangely God and family are both missing from UBF. Isn’t that strange? We are supposed to focus on God, and yet all I see is focus on heritage, mission, numbers.

It’s just…well…dull. There is no life in the public prayers on Sundays. How do I know? Now I started attending another church…a lovely family centered, community serving church. Hey to do missions, they to pray for people. But the prayers …they are specific, and heart felt. There is no pressure to bring people in. There is no condemnation when you don’t attend a meeting.

For the first time in years, I can breathe! I was so afraid, to leave UBF. And now that I am leaving…God! God is so good! How he never gave up on me and brought me out.

What saddens me about the cult label, is that leaders in UBF had every opportunity to make changes. They simply let pride get in the way. Jesus is about change! Jesus changes us and makes us new. I want to always change and grow! This is why I am so thankful beyond words to God for the strength he is giving me.

Exodus.

I just want to point out something, you wrote: “As Brian pointed out, the points listed in his article weren’t discussed.”

I would nuance this by saying the points were not discussed publicly. Yes the cult label is strong and no ubfer would dare address my seven points publicly. There is no one as foolish or brainwashed as I was back in 2004 when I did challenge the cult label as a ubf defender :) There is no “Mr. ubf” publicly anymore.

BUT mark my words– my article and my seven points were discussed privately. It is doubtful that anyone in the ubf echelon discussed the points. But I am sure that some rank-and-file members of ubf (i.e. sheep) did discuss the points. Some tried to find justifications as to why I am wrong. Others flat out denied my points.

I am of course guessing, but I am guessing what is happening based on my real experience. For example, one time the Voy forum ex-ubf people said that me an my friend TP were just obedient zombies who checked our brains at the door to the center. We discussed this even though we didn’t reply publicly in detail about our discussions.

So the shock effect is intentional–I expect ubf leaders to dismiss anything with my name on it, but I expect lower-level members will discuss what I say even though they likely would never comment publicly.

My Mestre made his stance clear at our major yearly event last Sunday. He said

“Tradition is Bs. Its belief system. You have your bs and I have my bs. Guys, I am skeptical of tradition. Some person comes and says to me “Its only capoeira if you have like a 1 drum only on the right side” and I am like “Why?” and they say “tradition” and I say “Whose tradition? I was around then and they don’t do that?” Guys, what happens is one guy does something and then people do that long enough and it becomes tradition. But that’s not the way it has to be. I can respect that tradition, but when your tradition starts to control you. Then you have a cult. It’s the same way with religion. People take like the best things of religion and use it to control people and then you have like a cult. Guys none of you had to be hear today. I didn’t force any of you to drive all those hours to be here. You are hear because you want to be. Don’t ever let anyone tell you “Oh this is tradition. You must like- do it this way.” Screw that. Anyone can make new “traditions”. Guys Capoeira is not the most important. It is God, family, and then if you want- capoeira.”

I like listening to podcasts while driving to work, or taking a walk in the forest.

So, to add to Brian’s article, I’m sharing a link to a lecture by Jacob Prasch, titled, “Cultic Practices in the Evangelical Church.”

https://youtu.be/3-7LSyghCBo

I’ve shared this before, but it seems fitting to share again here.

For example, before I married, the UBF chapter director of my wife – who came from a different chapter to my chapter – let her promise that she would always obey my chapter director more than me.

I will ask you a simple question: Do you think this orientation is good? Do you think it is Biblical?

Can you answer this simple question?

All these bubbles provide temporary relief from the sacrifice demanded by the ubf system, but they also seem to keep enabling the ubf system all the more.

The current LA director, JK, once said to me, “Isn’t my favor enough?” No, it’s not. No one wants to be favored. We want to be equals.

Though people could inject their own bias, preferences, prejudices, emphasis, imperatives, commands, politics, legalisms, etc onto it, I would think that most people would find it rather innocuous.

All this said, I would say that more than simply being allowed or even encouraged to choose a shepherd, relationships based on equality need to be fostered. A healthy mentor/protege relationship is based, in part, upon the principle that the mentor knows that they are to serve a temporary and needed role (which is often kairotic in nature) in the protege’s life. In this type of arrangement, there can exist a predetermined and respectful amount of distance in the relationship, i.e. the mentor does not overstep his/her bounds. And as a mentor, I don’t think that I would ever dub myself as someone’s “spiritual father”. I’m not sure where that line of thinking comes from; perhaps it’s cultural in nature.

Excellent point Charles. And get this: when my wife and I went through a cohort study group at our church, we learned about mentoring. Mentoring is night and day different from shepherding that is taught at ubf.

In fact, the most eye-opening things to me is that mentors do not choose students; students choose mentors!

We don’t ubf “sheep” start suggesting that to the Ethics Committee? How much change would be realized at ubf if “sheep” chose “shepherds”?

I think we should talk about point #2 “Identity Breaking”. In the ubf mind, there is always one and only one application of the bible – to be a shepherd (or shepherdess) for “world campus mission”.

Take a look at this presentation that Sarah Barry herself created. This is still publicly linked to on the Chicago main website. Is this the way we are to study the bible? Why is such weak hermeneutics and cultic binding not called out or questioned?

Inductive bible study – ubf presentation

After studying some pre-seminary courses, this presentation has got to be one of the weakest bible study approaches ever created. It may sound good, but notice the one and only application at the end. That’s really what ubf bible indoctrination is all about – conditioning you to break down your identity so you become convinced the only way to please God is to be a ubf shepherd.

My opinion is that you need to just up an leave and not speak to them about it and find a good Bible teaching church in your neighborhood. But Brian Karcher will have some great advice for you, too.

This statement sounds really odd to me. ubfriends is a website. We don’t practice any of the harmful ubf methods such as arranged marriage. Would you explain further for our readers please? (I know you know but please let them know!) Thanks.

You are welcome HappyPinnky. Please come back after your brain gets a good rest.

I have felt many of the things you bring up recently. I believe this song helps my feeling of helplessness.

I was 17 when I first came to UBF. I’m now 32. I spent my whole adult life in UBF and was with many of the same people in such close proximity for 15 years. I married in UBF and had 3 children as of the time I left (I now have another one on the way :D). It did feel quite risky at first. But the exit process wasn’t kind. However, I knew at the time that it was the only right thing I could do for my family and to lift the burden on my conscience.

Of course, I can’t tell you what to do. That’s just my advice and story. And I do recommend further speaking with people and going through these questions with others who are not your shepherd, director, or even people in your chapter. Ask questions and listen to many people outside for a better perspective.

I agree regarding Hassan’s work. Sometimes when you consider the stories of cults and the people who’ve left and written about it, it might sound so weird, ridiculous, and just out there. But when I remember that they’re people just like anyone else that got caught up in something they shouldn’t have, I can begin to take in and process what they have to say. We need a third party to help ground us in reality. I appreciate the advice I found from other pastors and writers who, when encouraging people to have mentors, don’t keep other bound to them. They recommend having multiple mentors from different places, like 5, for example, so that you don’t become a copy of the one mentor and that you can broaden your learning and understanding.

Brian, if possible could you provide your email address or skype address for me …I would like to reach out in person . I mcin severe need of advice right now because of all that has happened.

Nearly the exact words my family said to me. We found out one family member had been referring to us a the “Moonies” for the prior 20 years!

This is why Steven Hassan’s work is so very helpful and relevant to processing out situation: Hassan was a leader for about 19 years in the Korean-led Unification Church (aka Moonies). He knows what it is like for an American to be trained by Koreans using the bible. And I think the lessons apply for any non-Korean group (with nuances of course) as well.

When I told my brother that I stopped going to UBF, he said, “I’m glad you’re out of that cult. You know it was a cult, right?” On another note, in my discussions with UBF people, it was always they who have brought up the cult label. I was asked, “So are you saying we’re a cult?” It was strange to me because I had not used the word “cult” at all. I can only think that it’s used as a kind of defense mechanism. If I say UBF is a cult, then I am dismissing all that has happened. If I say UBF is not a cult, then I need be quiet and move, because all is good. My reply each time has been, “If the boot fits…” But really having the outside, third party perspective, is important. I sometimes had to sprinkle a conversation with, “What if you asked a pastor from a church outside of UBF about this issue? What do you think he or she would say?”

I agree!

* If UBF did not exist, is this person someone I would want to marry?

* Does this person feel the same about me?

* Will my marriage commitment be a lifelong commitment to this person, rather than a commitment to an organization or ideology?

* Does this person want to make the same commitment to me?

* Do we like each other?

If the answers to any of these questions is no, then it is a huge red flag.

When Sharon and I met, we knew that we would want to marry even if there were no such thing as ubf. And early in the process, we had “the talk.” I specifically told her that my commitment to her would always come first, and if ubf fell apart it would have no bearing on our relationship. This July we will be celebrating our 25th anniversary. We love each other and the credit for our marriage goes to God, not to ubf. If ubf leaders want to call us unthankful, so be it. But ubf cannot establish a marriage or make it work. Only God can do that, with the full participation of you and your spouse. If ubf tries to take credit for this, it would be like Peter and John taking credit for the healing of the crippled man, which they did not (Acts 3:12).

2 Cor 11:20: “For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.” Understand that these people … were people inside the church, who claimed to be spiritual authorities… Be thankful to God and to the missionaries who found and helped you intially, but don’t allow them to enslave your whole life under the name of thankfulness and needing to “pay back”. Jesus said “Freely you have received; freely give.” (http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/04/30/why-i-say-ubf-is-a-cult/#comment-17883)

As I’ve said before some leaders who led you to Christ have this unfortunate idea and mindset: “I own you and you owe me.” This is clearly not biblical.

On another note, I’d like to thank Mr. Kim for participating and interacting with us. Though some initial exchanges were not very pleasant, it is nonetheless good that we began to communicate. In my opinion, I do not believe that he does any of the seven points that Brian states, which is why he says to each: WRONG. To be fair, he has also stated that there are some ubf leaders who are wrong and immature, who indeed practice those seven points.

Only after ten years of UBF I found that I was not alone with my observerations about UBF. Thanks to websites like this one it’s much easier nowadays to find out that you’re not alone than it was in my time. And be assured you’re not alone. Like Brian, I read hundreds of testimonies and spoke directly with many dropouts (including many Korean dropouts) and all I heard was pretty similar, even though people came from different chapters and countries. Today I understand that this is because all the chapters and their directors operated based on a common set of practices and beliefs that has been set up and refined by Samuel Lee, imposed on UBF members via pyramid like authoritarian structure, information flow and manipulative methods. This is what I call the “UBF system”. I’m not a friend of the UBF system, but I’m a friend of UBF people since most of them are sincere and try to love God and their neigbours as best as they can. I believe that following the UBF system over several years hurts people, damages their souls, and displeases God – even if people have initially found peace and meaning in life through UBF. As you say, it’s difficult to reconcile these two things with each other. Naively you would think a ministry must be either “God’s work” or not. But in reality it’s not so easy.

The phenomenon of spiritual abuse exists and is wide-spread in many Evangelical churches. However, there are churches in which spiritual abuse is really “baked into the system” and UBF is one of them. Ronald Enroth wrote about this in his book “churches that abuse” – UBF was in fact one of his examples. And this was long before Brian, Joe, I or other people on this site started to see it. It may be helpful for you to read such books, and books about cults and their methods in general. This will really open your eyes to discern what is healthy and what is not. You will also start to see that certain problems are not unique to UBF, but will inevitably happen if leaders establish systems with certain characteristics. I remember a testimony from a dropout of the ICoC (which is a group similar to UBF) in which he wrote “first they save you – then they enslave you.”

It’s also helpful to see how even the Bible warns of these very things. For instance, Galatians 5 says “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” So here you have it, even in the early days of the church there were already people who wanted to enslave fellow believers. It’s nothing new. Even physical abuse happened, as you read in 2 Cor 11: “For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.” Understand that these people who “hit others in the face” were people inside the church, who claimed to be spiritual authorities, “super apostles”, maybe because they led many others to faith in God already. So these things do not contradict each other. Be thankful to God and to the missionaries who found and helped you intially, but don’t allow them to enslave your whole life under the name of thankfulness and needing to “pay back”. Jesus said “Freely you have received; freely give.”

The reason I speak and write is because time after time after time people have told me just what you say here. You are not alone; many people here share your exact experiences.

It is uncanny how precisely exactly and perfectly similar hundreds of people’s experiences can be! This is because we are all trained by the same system. We were systematically conditioned and conformed to KOPAHN shepherding ideology.

There is much to process here, and you are welcome to reach out to me for coffee or a Skype call if you want. Grace and peace.

I am not here to change anyone’s mind or seduce anyone into “homo sex”…. To me the ex-ubf means not only former member, but to explain, the expose, to examine and to share our experience.

My only response to what you wrote above is that there are indeed numerous people at ubf who are indeed trying to emulate SL. Maybe you have not met them but I have. These are the people who were taking pictures on SL’s gravesite until just this past year. They are the one’s jockeying for the positions of power over his grave. The one who sits on the head of SL’s grave wants a double-portion of his power and spirit.

I ve believed in this ideology for a decade and met Christ personally in this church. My bible teacher/ shepherd is like my own family to me. It is intensely painful to think about that a church that can bring people to the Bible and that I believe God IS using for His purpose of preaching the gospel, could also be so corrupt in the heart of its system.

Yesterday , the same day when I read this article, I was suggested yet again to marry by faith. But see… To marry in UBF is not to just marry…it’s to support a mission life that is becoming less and less of an option for my spiritual health. I wish it wasn’t so…I wish I could convince myself that it’s all in my head…but it is not. My first proposed arrangement failed and I only can thank the Holy Spirit. Since then, the UBF activity only intensified. If I could describe how I am feeling…it is something as frightening as my heart being bruised over and over and over. I do not have peace about neither leaving or staying. For those of you who are not in UBF…and this has been revealed to me subtly over time…the leader of the chapter is equated with God..lntentionally or not.

He is making the decisions, and we are all following the pyramid structure. Now you might ask …why is it that since I know this, I remain. The answer…I do not know. I still have hope it will change…but the hope is bleaker and bleaker. I pray to Jesus he will change this ministry or tear it down completely. There are so many lives in my chapter I care about,t hey r like my family….yet now I feel like leaving Maybe the only option.

My eyes are being opened all throughout this year as I have been attending another church here and there, and reading christian books and making connections with other Christians and friends outside of UBF. There is much I am thankful for to my chapter, but my resolution remains….this system must change.

I read what you wrote about Dr. Samuel Lee and enjoyed much. I don’t know why but this is the first time I read about his life. I heard of him through many shepherds. Actually I couldn’t read his sermons either.
I believe that he could be viewed both as a great Christian by ubfers and as a dicatator and cult leaeder by anti-ubfers. But, I don’t agree that he was viewed as flawless man. How could it be possible? We learned that even Father Abraham and King David were sinners who failed many times. We could respect him as our great leader but I have never seen anyone who viewed him that way.
One thing I know is that he was very strong and powerful that many people couldn’t follow or bear what he wanted to show. Anyway, he was a founder of ubf and leader. And I know he was a sinner before God like us. And as you said, he was a great Christian.
And as you said, nobody in ubf act like him any longer.

Now, I see that most of the pastors go to seminaries and even non-pastors go too. I see that all the leaders are very different that they form very different environment for each ubf. Some are like maybe Dr. Samuel Lee while some are very meek leaders. And some are like you. And some could be very unique and immature. That is what I believe. And each year, ubf is changing and facing many challenges. I again admit that there could be people who got hurt by immature people or leaders. I also saw some people who said that they got hurt by my immaturity. Many of them, I reconciled and there are still some I couldn’t yet. But, these are due to my immaturity. Sometimes I see that those who people got hurt by our immaturity became bitter and talk about us badly. Still I understand that.

I am writing too long and it is not organized. However, what I am saying is that we, you and us, are working for God, our Lord. We should try to understand and respect each other, not biting and hurting each other. I think we should be able to pray for each other regardless any one is in ubf or not. Aren’t we all children of God?
I know that there are already deep wounds and hatred between both parties. There must be a peaceful way. Of course, I don’t know how.
Some of you said that it was good that new Bible students left ubf. But, that was not good either, you know. When little soul lose faith because of our immature fighting, who is responsible for it? I don’t know about the politics much. But, I know that one soul is very precious and important to God and us.
Thank you for reading this unorganized post.

Brian,
I am afraid of what you are going to say already. I know that I wrote down this only from my point of view. But, this is my heart.

The good news is that this is the Christian way– to deny your self and die– with hope of the resurrection! Those Korean ubf missionaries who have done this are amazing witnesses! (i.e. Mark Yoon, etc)

“One could argue over the extent to which they happen now. But it’s very hard to dispute that(a) these things did happen, (b) these were not isolated occurrences but a recurring pattern, and (c) the organization has never officially admitted that any of these things happened.”

Precisely my point. As long as the HQ does not address these things the whole organization suffers the cult label. It is unfair yes but that is how leadership works. If the leaders don’t take action, the whole team suffers.

And I agree very much about not apologizing right now. I have had TOO MANY apologies from ubf people. I accept all of them. But apology and sadness are not what is helpful right now. Reacting like 2 Corinthians 7:1-16 is my prayer and hope.

Only after my resignation did I find a couple Korean ubf missionaries who would talk to me. They would never have done so while “in” so I am so glad to be “out”.

Thank you mrkim for confirming and validating everything I ever learned about Korean ubf missionaries. Over the past couple days you have proved all of my points with remarkable clarity. I almost thought you were joking but clearly you are not.

Regarding your points 1-7, I personally witnessed all of them going on. That doesn’t mean that they all happened all the time in every UBF chapter. I hope they didn’t go on too much in my chapter where I was the director. That doesn’t mean that they all continue now in every UBF chapter. One could argue over the extent to which they happen now. But it’s very hard to dispute that(a) these things did happen, (b) these were not isolated occurrences but a recurring pattern, and (c) the organization has never officially admitted that any of these things happened.

Last week, I received a lengthy, detailed, private response to my open letter to the President (Augustine Sohn). I will honor his request and not publish his letter. I might publish my own response sometime. But after seeing that response, it’s clear to me that (d) the leaders of UBF do privately acknowledge that the kinds of things I listed in my letter did happen, and (e) although there are differences of opinion within the organization, the overall impression is that UBF leaders don’t want those practices to continue, but they don’t think that the effects were very harmful because the people who are presently in UBF don’t think they were harmed very much.

Curiously, I found myself in agreement with this. The letter I received from the President was very honest, very sincere, and very truthful in the sense that he accurately represented his own personal viewpoint and accurately captured the sentiments of UBF leaders and members. That sentiment is, “Yes, these things happened, they are regrettable, but they are not such a big deal.”

Therein lies the problem. UBF leaders (most of them) understand how they and their members feel about UBF’s past and present. But they do not yet empathize with ex-members, their families, and others who believe that UBF has harmed them significantly more than UBF believes. And, as far as I can tell, there is no widespread agreement within the organization that it is important to listen to ex-members’ stories and address those stories in a way that is not defensive.

For what it’s worth, my advice to them now is
* do not officially acknowledge wrongdoing, and
* do not issue a mea culpa,
because the organization is clearly not ready. There is no point in apologizing for something until your soul is convicted and your heart is truly broken for those whom you have hurt. If they try to do it now, it will sound like a classic political non-apology and it may do more harm than good. Some people within UBF who are more ready to apologize than others. But an apology, when it is made, needs to be real.

What is most interesting is that non-UBF Christians thought I wrote a very charitable and loving article about Lee, while some UBF Christians hated me for “slamming my shepherd.”

After spending nearly 4 hours on this site today, I feel that I’m gonna go bit mental. As Joe said, I am not used to this stamina.

1) wrong
2) wrong
3) wrong
4) wrong
5) wrong
6) wrong
7) wrong

Personal experience doesn’t apply to the entire church, Brian.
You had better listen to HappyPinnky and learn more.

Maybe my perceptions and observations are wrong. :)

For the past 28 years I have met hundreds of ubf people. Every month ubf people call me or contact me and discuss ubf problems. I have read every one of the 153 ex-ubf testimonies on the internet. I have visited more than 30 ubf chapters in 7 countries. I have had dinner with Abraham T Kim and James Kim (former President of ubf). I have met for over 6 hours in one sitting with Sarah Barry herself. I have had hundreds of hours meeting with all levels of ubf people in the past 5 years. I have met Mark Yoon for 3 hours in a coffee shop in Detroit 2 years ago. I have spent thousands of hours the past 5 years discussing many things with ubf people via more than 3,000 emails.

How many ubf people have you met and talked with?

At least in my brief observations and conversations, they don’t always happen.

Brian is this what you do all day? Sit in from of desktop write books about ubf and criticize it?

Seriously, go out and meet some ubf people.

Would you be kind to call upon all western churches who sent out missionaries to orient and east centuries ago and today to repent of hidden racism, cultural destruction, decision control of local groups, imposition of western style of doing thins, western styles of scriptural interpretation, and for many many other things?

I suppose you are a member of Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Would you ask them to repent for tolerating rampant sexual promiscuity of its memebers? For the wrong ps their misionaries have done years ago in other countries?

Because to my knowledge a lot of western churches did not officially repent of things I have mentioned.

Maybe you should diversify your criticsm to include more groups. That way u will be more credible.