Comments on: If Not for Ubfriends I Would Not Be Getting Married http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16238 Tue, 20 Jan 2015 14:44:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16238 Yes. I mean I had made my decision in my heart shortly after meeting her. But I remember that Andrew Martin really regretted his choice to make a decision so fast without dating her. Culturally, I also could not propose without her families consent, so a proposal after a few hours like I had read time and time again was not possible. This was a major consideration for me. I wasn’t willing to alienate her family (or mine) with a sudden proposal. When I went back, despite knowing her for 8 months I learned so much and we grew so much in just a few short weeks together that it really confirmed for me what I had already decided many months prior- that I would marry her.

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By: c http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16234 Tue, 20 Jan 2015 05:13:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16234 Congrats, forests. Glad to hear that you’re happy and experienced God’s work despite pushback.

That those kinds of negative responses about a marriage being “from God” (UBF’s way) or not and about shepherding are not called out by UBF leadership (since they are standard teaching and widespread) is infuriating and one reason why I could not stay in UBF. More of the same ubfisms and methods of control. I haven’t found the majority of people who teach these things as bad or evil people, but the problem is that this is what they were taught and how they also showed their “faith”. It’s systemic and praised, and the cycle continues–well, not in forests’ case, thankfully.

Amazing that we are here happy and thrilled that forests married in this way. Of course, those who married by UBF’s way will say that it was their own decision. And it’s true–such people did make that decision for themselves. I did as well. I don’t take away at all from how such people believe they expressed their faith by that decision. But the context in which that decision was made is setup and manipulative, and, in many cases, deceitful. The words of the infuriated missionary aren’t surprising at all, and show how the UBF shepherding system creates a possessive, competitive and unloving environment.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16232 Tue, 20 Jan 2015 02:34:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16232 Ultimately, there is only ONE who is superior. Yet he condescended himself to be the lowliest servant of all (Phil 2:5-7; Mk 10:43-45). Making such statements that is disparaging and condescending toward others (even if it may be true) never ever promotes the humility and servantship of Christ, but only ugly hubris and uglier elitism.

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16231 Tue, 20 Jan 2015 01:06:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16231 Well, Christianity is undeniably superior. I don’t think that’s the problem. I think a blanket statement needs to be careful. The apostles and those who came after never used that language except when referring to specific philosophies and churches.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16225 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 21:47:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16225 Joe, I find that any Christian missionary who makes statements like this highly problematic and actually rather sickening, if not unChrist-like: “Asia is like a spiritual wasteland and is full of idol worshipers…” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16221

Such statements imply the unquestioned superiority of the Christian, which cannot but make the missionary always feel like they (rather than Christ) is the Savior, and that they are far better than the natives simply because they are Christian.

Ultimately, this really denies the grace of God.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16222 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:16:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16222 Ben, how do you think they would like this paragraph?

“UBF is like a spiritual wasteland and is full of idol worshipers according to their custom in spiritual darkness. But God is working mightily through the Holy Spirit using UBFriends, shining the light of God’s glory all over UBF.”

I took that paragraph from a published UBF mission report and just changed a couple of words. The original version was:

“Asia is like a spiritual wasteland and is full of idol worshipers according to their custom in spiritual darkness. But God is working mightily through the Holy Spirit using our missionaries, shining the light of God’s glory all over Asia.”

Jesus said, “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” (Matthew 7:12).

For some strange reason, UBF leaders don’t think it’s problematic to publish offensive statements about people whom they are trying to evangelize. But I’ll bet that, if someone published that first version, many of them would be furiously gnashing their teeth, even though it’s somewhat true. There is a fair amount of idol worship going on, and this website has been shining a light on it.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16221 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:01:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16221 Agreed.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16218 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 17:14:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16218 Might it be the sadly misguided idea that public “official” reports must always be so-called positive–not negative–and encouraging–not discouraging?

Doesn’t this often come at the expense of not being entirely forthright or honest?

Of is it simply equating acknowledging abuses with shame and with losing face and credibility?

In my opinion, some older folk just do not realize that coming clean with nothing to hide really increases their credibility and enhances their strong sense of honor.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16217 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:53:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16217 They know, Ben but seemingly only in priavate, personal meetings. Some weird kind of amnesia occurs with them while making public statements; a strange phenomenon that I haven’t figured out yet. :-p

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16216 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:48:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16216 +1

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16213 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:29:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16213 This is funny…in my subdued Oriental sort of way. Well I guess if they supposedly surreptitiously and secretly follow me, then it’s a big secret to me as well! :-)

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16212 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:12:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16212 Ben, I received a rather odd, out of the blue email the other day. I don’t really understand what this person was saying or why they were telling me, but here is one sentence that made me ROFL…

“I noticed a lot of 2nd gens in UBF secretly follow Ben Toh.”

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By: BrianK http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16211 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:10:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16211 Thanks for sharing this part of your journey, forests! I have to say I am thrilled at being able to see you make your own decisions, especially regarding marriage. Congratulations on your engagement.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16210 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 15:58:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16210 “It would have been different if they would have acknowledged any of the problems that I heard personally from many around the world.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16209

Acknowledging problems in UBF (that is likely even evident to themselves) has seemingly been something that is almost impossible for some (or many) to do over the last five decades. All those who acknowledge problems have either left UBF or have been basically marginalized and caricatured.

I’m still speculating and wondering why some of our missionaries and leaders are just simply unable to frankly acknowledge that “Houston, we have a problem,” even though they/we are experiencing countless problems and difficulties and unnecessary obstacles because of this inability to acknowledge the obvious.

This is an illustration I heard and used from a ubf sermon about denying God’s existence (which I no longer like to use): To deny God’s existence is like looking up in the sky and closing one’s eyes and saying, “There is no sky.”

Isn’t looking at ubf and saying “there’s no problem in UBF; all the problems are with UBFriends (and with Brian Karcher!) virtually the exact same thing???

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16209 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:32:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16209 That’s too bad for them. They are free to change any of the reasons that I rejected their idea any time they want. It would have been different if they would have acknowledged any of the problems that I heard personally from many around the world. But instead I was outright lied to by several people. It goes without saying that wasn’t well received by me.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2015/01/18/if-not-for-ubfriends-i-would-not-be-getting-married/#comment-16208 Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:10:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=8770#comment-16208 I love your title (and your reflections). But I’m not sure that your title will be as well received by traditional UBFers, who I am sure would much prefer my title, which supposedly is one of the very few UBFriends articles I’ve written that they actually like, appreciate and even applaud!: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/01/23/if-not-for-ubf-i-would-not-be-married/

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