Yet, if you google for “Weltmissionsbefehl” (world mission command in German) the first results are UBF websites. Even among English speaking websites, if you google for world mission raising disciples, UBF is among the top results.

Btw, here is another reason why I believe UBF is fulfilling the command badly, because the verse says to “go”, “baptize” and “teach”. However, in my 10 years of UBF I never saw a single baptism in UBF. Even though there were newly converts and children, they were not baptized. I know that Samuel Lee also didn’t care about baptism, so nobody else cared. Not sure how much this has changed in the current UBF. From the very beginnins, UBF was so obsessed with this verse, yet totally disregarded the one thing that is explicitly mentioned there.

On disciple-making by way of modeling –

Because Richards and others use the verb “to disciple” and the gerund “discipling” to emphasize that modeling is not only a part of nurture but its basic element, these terms can easily be misunderstood as making modeling part of Jesus’ command “make disciples” in Matthew 28:19. This is an example of the fallacy of confusing concepts and terms. Though the concept of modeling is certainly scriptural, including this concept in the term μαθητεύω is not correct. So it is probably the better part of wisdom that we don’t speak about “discipling” people.

The dual role of God and man in disciple making –

However, the broad expression “make disciples” can easily be misunderstood. Therefore, when we use or explain these words, we always need to make sure that we clearly distinguish our part in carrying out Jesus’command from God’s part. Only God the Holy Spirit can turn people from unbelief to faith and constantly increase that faith. Only God the Holy Spirit can create a living faith that clings to and willingly does all that Christ commands. But we also have a part in this work because God has chosen to use us as his agents to proclaim the Word through which the Spirit does his work. Therefore, God does speak of human beings having a part in bringing people to faith (e.g., Acts 26:17 where Paul is described as opening people’s eyes and turning people from darkness to light, from Satan to God). But whenever we cite such passages we need to speak carefully so that the part we have in this action, what we do, is never confused with the Spirit’s work, with what he does.

There is a very famous/popular minister who has a large congregation in the Southern Baptist Denomination. People devour his books and deem him as the next great thing in terms of teaching about disciple making. But one Christian commentator levied a critique against him which said that this preacher’s interpretation of Matt 28:19 is essentially this, “make disciples so that those disciples can then make disciples and on and on.” It’s very difficult for me to listen to or be compelled by his preaching because he has not indicated that he understands the great commission with any depth.

Regarding “make disciples”, they replaced “make” with “train” (we already discussed that), and interpreted “disciples” as disciples of a certain ministry, not disciples of Jesus. Christian mission does not mean to draw people to you or your group (that would be more like recruiting), much less making them dependent of you, but to draw people to Jesus and make them independent of you. John the Baptist understood this very well, when he said “He must become greater; I must become less.” Apostle Paul also exemplified this. He didn’t stay anywhere and became leader or director when people liked him; he always moved on and let local elders lead the church.

Regarding “teaching them everything I have commanded you to obey” the question is what is this “everything”? It certainly isn’t sogam sharing sessions, establishing and following authoritarian structures, it’s not even attending SWS. It’s also not mission. Mission for the sake of mission is hollow nonsense. In view understanding, the one thing that Jesus commanded was written up in Joh 13:34-35 and John 15:12. And this command is already “everything”.

Exegetical Brief: The Meaning Of μαθητεύσατε In Matthew 28:19

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/KuskeMatthew.pdf

“LIVING CORAM DEO IS TO LIVE ONE’S ENTIRE LIFE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD, UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF GOD, TO THE GLORY OF GOD” – http://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-does-coram-deo-mean/

http://biblehub.com/greek/elenxon_1651.htm

When I considered “shepherding” and examined various scriptures in the NT, God helped me to completely change the way I mentor and disciple others: http://westloop-church.org/index.php/messages/new-testament/23-matthews-gospel/313-shepherding-sheep-mt-20-25-28

Jesus’ emphatic negation “Not so with you” is a stern warning to every church leader who is authoritarian. If Mark Driscoll had taken these words of Christ to heart, he would not be in the mess he presently is in. The same could be said about certain leaders in ubf. All they need to do is to “just obey” what Jesus said (Mt 20:25-26a; Mk 10:42-43a; Lk 22:25-26).

And one of his qualifications as an elder was his outward and internal submission to the God of the Scriptures, rather than some idea/philosophy external to the them; he had intimate (or experiential) knowledge of God. In this way, he can be practically qualified as one who corrects others (doctrinally speaking, in terms of who God is/what he is like).

And as for the matter of training, if he himself is trained by the God of the Scriptures and not man, then he should act as a facilitator in his congregation who can help others to know God through these same Scriptures so that ultimately they may be parented by God as well. In other words, he should not see himself as some kind of “trainer” imposed on the congregation by the will of God but rather someone who reveals the character and being of God to them that they may truly come under His sovereign wing as His dearly loved children.

In this case, it’s of utmost importance to note that the two verses you quoted have a different subject. In the first verse, the subject is Scripture (in a way, God Himself), while in the second verse, the subject is Timothy (bishop of the church in Ephesus).

Thus, the verses talk about completely different things and need to be treated separately.

If you look at the verbs used in the two verses, then two of them (correct and rebuke) seem to overlap. In reality, the verbs used are all different words in the Greek original. It is very important to look at the exact verb used in Greek language, and it’s connotations, or to read a verse in different translations.

The word that NIV translates as “training” in the first verse (about Scripture), and KJV translates as “instruction”, is the Greek “paideia” and in its meaning close to how UBF understands training/raising disciples (i.e. has the connotation of “parenting”). The interesting thing is that this word is not used in the second verse (about the Timothy). Paul does not ask Timothey to “train” anybody.

In fact, the German Luther translation has here in the first verse (about Scripture) the word “Erziehung” that UBF always applies to their own ministry. I remember that after leaving UBF studied the German Bible regarding the use of the word “Erziehung”. What I found is that in the whole Bible the word is exclusively used when God is the subject. Training, which can be sometimes humiliating, is the task of God, not of human teachers.

Also note that in the second verse, a bishop is the subject, i.e. an appointed elder and teacher, not the average Christian. Still, even bishops do not have the task to “train” anybody.

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” – 2 Tim 3:16-17

and

“Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.” – 2 Tim 4:2

Sure. One reason may be that they have stricter ethical or moral norms (some of which are Biblical, but many are not), and it’s usually easy to see when other people violate norms, much easier than seeing your own wrongdoings. Jesus spoke about this in Matthew 7:3.

Another reason is that some Christians organizations like UBF are not only inclined to correct others, but believe it’s their actual business. We often talk about how the problem of UBF is the focus on mission only. But that’s not even quite true. UBF does not focus on mission, but on “raising disciples” (or “Jüngererziehung” in German) and “training disciples”. The self-conception of UBF is that they are a “disciple raising/training ministry” (“Jüngererziehungswerk”) (just google for these words, I did not make it up). Here, “raising” is meant as a “spiritual” analog of how parents raise their small children, sometimes even as an analog of training animals or soldiers – the word “training” is very important in UBF. So it’s no wonder UBFers are “inclined” to correct others.

When I first became a Christian I really felt like the only way to be faithful to the bible was to do volunteer work for the homeless (in the same way that UBF teachers, either implicitly or explicitly, that the only way to be faithful to the gospel is by becoming a pastor or missionary. It took me a while to realize that UBF views these activities, conferences, fishing, as “good work”. In February I spent a whole day volunteering at a medical mission for Uganda. It was not even mentioned by UBF members. I spent 30 minutes fishing one day and I heard about it for a week. I think they are both commands, but to the unchurched the former seems like a “real work” the latter seems like a cop out. Stephan Lutz said in his book that until unbelievers see believers fulfilling the commands Jesus gives regarding the poor they will remain unbelievers.

This is what I just wrote in an email:

“I explained the story of the Bible in 4 words:
1) Creation
2) Fall
3) Redemption
4) Consummation

My primary emphasis was on redemption which was possible only and entirely by God’s mercy and grace. I stressed how God primarily wants to love us and forgive us (as Jesus did even toward Judas the betrayer, or as the father did toward his lost and broken prodigal son). However we Christians might be more inclined to point out and punish sin in others and to be more retributive and punitively inclined toward each other–more than we might be to being gracious, generous, forgiving and merciful toward them. Lord, have mercy on me.”

The answer that “for Christians these go hand in hand” should have been a starting point for discussion, not an ending point. Jesus said the highest thing is to love our neighbor. That means actively helping and caring. And often to help other, it’s necessary to fight evil.

I remember how I met a young student at a UBF conference in Moscow. He told me he didn’t like the conference because it seemed to him the people were only talking, but doing something. That was obviously the same sentiment.

Just yesterday, my atheist sister put me to shame. We brought somebody to a hospital and were sitting in the waiting room. While I only cared about ourselves and about how long we needed to wait, my sister saw a person who obviously couldn’t walk and was abandoned by her caregivers while she was waiting there for hours. So she went over and offered her to bring her a drink and asked whether she needed anything else. In the light of Mt 25:42, she actually was the Christian, not me.

Reaching out to this demographic as you did here happens to coincide with how I carry out evangelism. Several years back, in order to engage non-believers, I made a survey which focuses on questions surrounding the problem of evil. I picked the topic of evil because it’s a ubiquitous issue that we all deal with and it also provides a kind of natural segue into presenting the gospel. It’s devoid of Christian lingo and requires you to know a bit of apologetics and reasoning tactics, but if you can pull it off it opens the door for even-handed and illuminating discussions. If/when time permits, I’ll post it as an article.

But this article highlights a huge blindspot in, not just the religious-minded, but among nearly everyone’s way of relating to each other. And that is the importance of listening. You mention that this was an open forum, implying that all ideas would be welcomed and the discussions would be generous and amicable. But as you realized when worldview issues are on the line, so to speak, people began to posture in a defensive manner, and at times become disrespectful, dismissive, angry and even hostile. I used to love debating in these kinds of environments (and I still do to an extent) because it’s so much fun when you can clobber someone with a well-thought out point (I know that’s terrible). But more often than not, what happens is that the potential for eye-opening dialogue quickly takes a back seat to who’s right and who’s wrong and usually a stalemate is the end result.

As I mature I’m beginning to, by the grace of God, take the route of reflective listening. This entails me putting all of my “right answers” on the shelf for the time being and simply listening to what others have to say about their worldviews and why what they believe matters to them. If someone says something that appears to me to be wrong, rather than acting in a reactionary manner and providing a corrective answer, I instead dig deeper and ask questions as to why they believe such and such a thing; this usually helps the both of us come to a better understanding of one another rather than going off into debates trying to prove who is correct or mistaken. But mainly when I speak it’s mainly to 1) reiterate what they have said so as to truly understand them and 2) if I have been asked to speak by the listener. I get the impression that this is similar to what God does with us; he invites us into dialogue with himself and he both genuinely listens and speaks wisely to us. I believe that his end goal is forming a genuine relationship with us. I have a lot to learn from him in this regard :)