Comments on: Galatians Set Me Free From Legalism http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: MattC http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14296 Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:14:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14296 Thanks Ben for this post. Hope I’m not necro-ing here. If I am apologize in advance.

However, it’s indeed discouraging to hear that Filipino UBF looks like you have said. I remember after the Homecoming of SL I read the “World Mission Report” and was quite moved by his story of faithfulness and genuine-ness.

If what you say is true, it’s quite different than what we see in Paul’s missionary work . . . and this from a “Bible-centered” ministry . . .

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14041 Tue, 27 May 2014 15:57:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14041 And forests, I’m not saying they are Illithids. I am saying they are “the Silence” :)

“The Silence was founded by Tasha Lem, Mother Superious of the Papal Mainframe, when she changed the core tenets of the Papal Mainframe to dedicate it to ensuring that “silence would fall” in response to the First Question, sent by the Time Lords to find the correct universe into which they could return. It was believed that the Time War would begin anew if the Time Lords returned, and so the Church of the Silence was created to prevent the Doctor from answering the First Question and telling the Time Lords that it was safe for them to return.”

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14040 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:55:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14040 “I recently found out there is a korean UBF chapter in the Philippines.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14038 According to a DB book I was shown there are supposedly three chapters headed by missionaries.

I’m not sure whether or not they have sheep. But the sad fact is that none of the missionaries are joining, learning from, or supporting WA or the three church plants (Antipolo, Calaocan and University belt) that are thriving.

The sad story of some (many?) of our UBF missionaries is that they leave Korea with a spirit of conquest and triumphalism, rather than with a spirit of humility and servitude. Their attitude is like that of a lord, a king or a top-down leader, rather than of a humble servant of the indigenous people.

As a result, it would feel humiliating or shameful for the missionaries to accept WA as the Filipino UBF director, nor learn from him and from the fruitful Filipino UBF leaders, several of whom have served Bible students and raised many leaders for up to two decades.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14039 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:42:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14039 It would be unfair, forests, if I had not experienced it for 20+ years. It would be unfair if I was just an outside observer. It would be unfair if I had not witnesses such monstrosities happen to over 100 of my friends. It would be unfair if we didn’t have over 200 public testimonies of the exact same issues. It would be unfair if the ubf leadership actually started open, honest, transparent, safe conversations.

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14038 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:39:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14038 ‘when they find such a student, they siphon off any energy the Holy Spirit might actual produce through genuine conversion, sapping the student of all life and joy and autonomy. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14037

You make them sound like some kind of monster from a Dungeons and dragons monster manual. It is probably unfair. Illithids have feelings too.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14037 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:24:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14037 And another bit of news… ubf is already establishing their own “ubf seminary”. Anyone want to sign up for a rich, dynamic, exciting experience?

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14036 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:20:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14036 And yes, many of us are aware of the Korean authority in the Philippines ubf world. This is yet another laughable snapshot of the absurd ubf hierarchy.

I once thought that ubf was a Christian missionary training and sending organization. I even had specific hopes to become a Christian missionary to Russia.

What I discovered is that ubf “sends” loyalists out to various lands as squatters. The ubf missionaries just sit there, claiming they are the authoritative servants of God, waiting for some college student who happens to be at a low point in their life to come to 1:1 and submit to their authority. When they find such a student, they siphon off any energy the Holy Spirit might actual produce through genuine conversion, sapping the student of all life and joy and autonomy. Then they proclaim “glory to God” and report back to ubf HQ that the KOPHN fantasy is advancing so gloriously. And all the while people like WA in Philippines continues to expand an amazing, wonderful and impactful Christian ministry.

This is not Christian ministry and has nothing to do with Jesus’ command to go into all the world. ubf is a cloning organization bent on establishing loyalists from among our youth.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14034 Tue, 27 May 2014 13:09:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14034 It’s not just you.

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14029 Mon, 26 May 2014 16:29:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14029 This might just be me, but it seems like the most prosperous ministries are those that gave up testimony writing, and the standard 1-1 bible study with questionnaire. I recently found out there is a korean UBF chapter in the Philippines. I didn’t know anything about them except that they didn’t come to the easter conference. I also noted that they have no “sheep”.
What is interesting is that reading all the UBF literature there were reports from Korean missionaries from Philippines. I thought that they had left the Philippines, but it turns out that the main branch recognized them as “leadership” in the Philippines.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-14028 Mon, 26 May 2014 14:10:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-14028 I just shared this in my latest post: Last week a friend shared with me a “wish dream” by a top UBF leader who said (I’m paraphrasing), “Being a 1:1 Bible teacher and writing testimonies is absolute.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/26/wish-dream-destroys-christian-community/#sthash.VPfW6Sxi.dpuf

This “absolute” requirement or expectation was supposedly mentioned at the last staff conf. last year. Perhaps this year, since the freedom of Galatians is the theme, the word “absolute” might be removed and changed to “optional.” :-)

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13974 Fri, 23 May 2014 21:48:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13974 That’s my honest prediction at this moment. If the document that you receive next month happens to be surprisingly good and useful, I will admit that I was wrong and immediately apologize for being too pessimistic.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13972 Fri, 23 May 2014 21:42:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13972 “Chapter guidelines should be distributed in advance and feedback collected and shared.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13959

In a sane world, that’s what would happen. A draft of the guidelines would be circulated to collect feedback from staff, and then your comments and concerns would be addressed. But that’s not what is happening. The chapter guidelines document is being finalized now, as we speak, with no input from you. The wise leaders and elders will simply present it to you next month, and you are to respond, “Thank you, oh, thank you soooo much.” Months ago, I saw where the process was going and I opted out, because in my opinion it was a waste of time. I can virtually guarantee that there will be nothing in the guidelines that will address any problems or correct any of the abusive practices of the past and present. Nothing in it will limit the power of elder Korean missionaries who will continue to do as they see fit. I predict that the document will be unsurprising, generic and bland, and it will have virtually no impact on how ubf chapters operate.

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By: c http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13959 Fri, 23 May 2014 18:05:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13959 The program is confusing to me. It seems to lose the context. Saturday’s item B., in my opinion, should have been put front and center, with a study of Galatians in that context. Chapter guidelines should be distributed in advance and feedback collected and shared. Staff requirements, definitions, practices, education, penalties, term lengths, etc., should be clearly outlined and discussed.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13951 Fri, 23 May 2014 13:05:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13951 Well said Chris, and a hearty Amen. What ubf really needs is to have a staff conference with ZERO BIBLE STUDY. Put the bible down, walk away slowly and start repairing your relationships, surrendering to Jesus our Lord and working toward reconciliation. Believe me, this IS what the Holy Spirit is calling ubf members to do.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13950 Fri, 23 May 2014 12:54:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13950 This program reminds me of another bad practice in UBF, namely trying to boil down every Bible section to exactly one “key verse” that can be used to reinforce UBFism. For instance, have a look at Galatians 5. Most Bible translations divide this into two subsections with the subheadings “Freedom in Christ” and “Life by the Spirit”. As was to be expected, UBF leaders chose the key verse from the second section. This immediately de-emphasizes the importance of the whole first section. Why not have Gal 5:1 as key verse: “Do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery”?

Similarly, the big crack in Galatians 2 is the part where Paul opposes Cephas. It is a great example where Paul shows how the truth of the gospel is more important than etiquette, politeness, keeping face, honoring elders etc. Of course, UBF leaders deliberately chose to de-emphasize this part. Why not have Gal 2:11 as key verse: “When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face?”

As you see, the selection and emphasis of key verses is a big matter. Of course, the UBF leaders care about these things for you, so you don’t need to think any more. Just like the care about selecting the GD for you so you don’t need to worry.

UBF members should really start to open their eyes to these details of how UBF does things and start questioning them instead of continuing these traditions because “we always did it like that”. These small peculiarities of UBF might seem harmless, and superficially they may even look good and Biblical. But if you look in detail, they are much more dangerous than they look, particularly, if all these practices are combined, because they reinforce and potentiate each other.

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By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13945 Fri, 23 May 2014 02:37:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13945 “Boy, does this bring back memories. Of hour after hour of listening to such stuff. Worse, of writing it myself.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/08/05/a-real-testimony-by-ben-toh-1998/#sthash.1Jt0XkIF.dpuf

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13942 Thu, 22 May 2014 23:12:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13942 Intentionally or not, this program is designed to prevent open-ended discussion and insulate the top leaders from difficult or embarrassing questions.

Right now, secret back-room negotiations are going on to select the next General Director. That decision will be made within the next couple of months. Once again, the staff who attend this event and who will be expected to follow the next GD and continue to send in their tithes and offerings are NOT BEING CONSULTED about who the next GD ought to be. Even worse, they are NOT EVEN BEING TOLD that this process is going on. As if they don’t need to know. As if they don’t deserve to know. If I were still invested in the organization, I would be hopping mad about this. But of course, we all know that it is “unspiritual” to be upset at such things. The only “spiritual” course of action is to keep quiet and obey and give thanks for the privilege of propping up such wonderful leaders who deeply care about you, so much that they are taking care of all the business details (such as choosing the next GD) so that you don’t have to think about anything or worry about anything at all, because everything is under control.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13941 Thu, 22 May 2014 19:23:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13941 It is odd to note there is only 1 message, on Sunday.

What everyone wants though is the “b” point on the Sunday plenary session. People likely want to know about 1) Chapter guidelines and 2) Staff education.

But looks like the program already admits there won’t likely be time for the Staff education report (ah too bad, we can’t talk about that). Not that there would be any talking or honest discussion anyway. Why not make these two topics the discussion points of day 1 and day 2? Ah but we must “study” the bible and get re-charged with ubf ideology!

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13940 Thu, 22 May 2014 19:15:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13940 Yes I saw that Ben. Sounds like this: “You are free to live in bondage to bible study”. I can predict the report already: “All North American staff deeply repented and fully accepted the true freedom in Christ. All participants wrote meaningful reflections on the entire book of Galatians. The Holy Spirit worked so mightily, giving us strength to sit on chairs and endure being bored to tears. Praise God for making us into a kingdom of priests and a holy nation for our generation!”

The conference is setup for spiritual abuse, which I define as “over prescribing the bible as the sole answer to life’s problems or as the best way to enjoy life, as in drug or alcohol abuse”.

But when you are trained and conditioned as a world-class chair sitter, you tend to go numb and just focus on self-preservation.

This conference is also very expensive. I am SO GLAD I no longer feel coerced and guilt-ridden about attending such 3 day events. Note that this costs you 2 DAYS of vacation (Thursday and Friday), an entire Saturday, travel expenses and registration fee, and probably your own credit card/deposit for the hotel.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13939 Thu, 22 May 2014 18:46:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13939 You may have already seen this, but I just saw the program for the Galatians staff conference: http://www.ubf.org/content/north-america-staff-conference-program I don’t know about you, but it just seems quite exhausting to me. Maybe it’s just me.

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13933 Thu, 22 May 2014 15:50:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13933 At least I think friend is in chicago. not sure why I thought that

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13932 Thu, 22 May 2014 15:44:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13932 Following recent events I might need to wait sometime for things to cool down. But yes in the future I would be happy to. Maybe Friend might, since she is in Chicago and closer to leadership.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13931 Thu, 22 May 2014 14:51:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13931 Forests, might you be able to present the “representative UBFriends position” locally in your chapter, and encourage an “ongoing equitable dialogue” rooted in love and respect for the other person’s position, which obviously needs to go both ways?

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13930 Thu, 22 May 2014 14:39:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13930 Following the Plebeian wars in Rome a tribune position was created. it had the power to veto and no patrician could be a tribune. (in fact bribing the tribune became an issue later).

I do not suppose that such a created position could be created with ‘veto’ power unless without war, and division, etc. What I mean is that there could be a person who attends staff conferences and acts as a bridge between older hard liners and the newer generation. I believe this was called by David w, the “lost” generation. For example there is a daily bread writers meets this weekend and there is a staff conference. Someone might act as a representative. Most if not all ubf leaders refuse to look at this site, even when they are quoted. If they won’t come to us then we should go to them.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13929 Thu, 22 May 2014 14:16:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13929 Forests, what are you referring to when you say “representative position.”? Like Ben I am curious what your further thoughts are.

Ben, in terms of dialogue, I am open to such dialogue. It won’t happen here publicly on a website, and I’m not interested in private, closed doors meetings. But face to face meeting is required I think.

If someone has some bright ideas I’m more than willing to “represent”.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13928 Thu, 22 May 2014 13:59:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13928 This is an interesting proposition/question from Forests: “I wonder if there is a way that a ubfriends representative position be made?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13927

I am thinking about how to articulate a “representative position.” Then I also immediately start thinking of the likely responses (or reactions) from traditional UBFers, especially the hard-liners.

In my simplistic mind, what is always needed (if we can ever get to it) is what I have termed an ongoing equitable dialogue. My favorite quote, which I have shared before, is by Pope Francis:

“…we succumb to attitudes that do not permit us to dialogue: domination, not knowing how to listen, annoyance in our speech (or on UBFriends!), preconceived judgments and so many others. Dialogue is born from a respectful attitude toward the other person, from a conviction that the other person has something good to say. It supposes that we can make room in our heart for their point of view, their opinion and their proposals. Dialogue entails a warm reception and not a preemptive condemnation. To dialogue, one must know how to lower the defenses, to open the doors of one’s home, and to offer warmth.”

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13927 Thu, 22 May 2014 13:25:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13927 I wonder if there is a way that a ubfriends representative position be made? Maybe friend? Not sure anyone could listen but it is a step.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13926 Wed, 21 May 2014 22:10:59 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13926 Ben,

“Some changes may happen at some small local chapter. But I don’t see this happening corporately anytime soon.”

I completely disagree. How long does it take a fire to start? When the Spirit is ready, everything will be made new. The answer is not slow changes, but many submitting to and obeying our Lord all at once. Listen to whatever it is God is saying to each of us, and do it, however strange it may seem.

We already have the work of the “Wilberforce“, so now is the time for the many to come together.

You have to believe something if you want to see it. I believe it is possible for any and all ubf Koreans and non-Koreans to be irresistibly overcome by the Spirit of Jesus and usher in corporate repentance.

As you point out, this will never happen by one person. A change in GD won’t do it. No program adjustment will accomplish it. Men and women and children who surrender to grace, learn to listen to the voice of the Spirit and begin acting in obedience to whatever it is Jesus it telling them to do now is the answer.

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By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13923 Wed, 21 May 2014 16:02:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13923 Forests..welcome to the real UBF..like a communist regime…they want to control your thinking and your everything that comes out of your mouth…freedom and prayerful critical thinking is discouraged…more is coming..
Stand firm my friend

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By: forestsfailyou http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13920 Wed, 21 May 2014 13:13:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13920 My pastor received a call about some of my comments here. Interestingly he didn’t come read them for himself. The comment in question was were I quoted him in an article. I found this amusing since I felt like I have said much *worse* things here than simply quoting him.

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By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13918 Wed, 21 May 2014 11:15:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13918 Charles agree with Ben Toh on this one..UBFriends or any outside influence is a distractor to mission….so untrue…loving people, families and the body of Christ is also a distraction from mission as well….it is all about UBF and their twisted programmed mind.. I pray for dialogue and healing of the top leaders….it begins when these walls of religion are broke down…sorta like the Berlin wall in Germany….then freedom and healing will flow like a river…pray for your efforts…

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13917 Wed, 21 May 2014 10:04:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13917 Charles, I agree with this and yet…: “I have found the staff conference bible studies good opportunity for discussions … and most probably will not get up and leave early. Then I can hear what they say they’re doing in their chapters and ask questions face to face.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13915

This may happen in one of countless dozens of Bible study groups at the conf. This happens on a very small scale. Some changes may happen at some small local chapter. But I don’t see this happening corporately anytime soon. Sorry for my ongoing GHE pessimism!

It is also very likely that most who will (spend the time and money to) attend the staff conf. have already been indoctrinated to regard UBFriends material as bad, negative, discouraging and the work of the devil to plant doubt and discourage mission.

Yet, Charles, do use your freedom to speak up, and I can’t wait to hear your report after the conf., which will likely be more objective than the official report.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13915 Wed, 21 May 2014 07:06:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13915 I fear you’re right, Ben. People don’t make this sudden moves from obedience to disobedience. When you’ve learned to be only obedient and huble for many years or decades, it’s difficult to suddenly engage in bold and courageous acts of disobedience. I remember that some who supported reform tried to subversively sneak in some non-conformant statements into their sermons or sogams, and they felt like rebels when daring to share these remarks publicly. But they were usually so weak or hidden between the lines or in parables that most listeners did not even notice or understand that the talker just wanted to say something rebellious.

For anything of that kind to happen, like-minded people must first meet with each other, talk with and encourage each other, see that they are not alone, see that others think the same. It will not happen spontaneously at a conference. UBFriends is a good place for this kind of talk, but there must also be meetings and discussion in real life.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13914 Wed, 21 May 2014 06:57:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13914 “This past weekend I heard a similar situation. A fellowship leader wanted to gather some people to discuss something about prayer. He was told “You are being divisive.””

My chapter leader said about the refomers “they are political”. Everybody who criticized the party line and obey Samuel Lee was considered to be “politically motivated”.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13913 Wed, 21 May 2014 06:53:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13913 “Another thing that they really don’t like: a group of Americans speaking to one another without a Korean missionary present”
I remember in the early 1990s we had a yearly “shepherd’s conference” in Germany for those who were considered to be shepherds or “hope bearers” (shepherd candidates). It was great because we could meet with other people from all around Germany. But every participant had to be accompanied by a senior Korean missionary (usually the shepherd) who would supervise the participant and probably later report to the chapter director. Time was strictly regimented for Bible study, sogam writing, sogar sharing etc. So there was little opportunity to speak and discuss with others. Still, it was one of the few occasions where we could meet and talk with each other. But it was discontinued in the mid 1990s, probably because they didn’t like us natives to be too much connected and see the big picture.

But I agree with Brian: It’s an escalator problem. However, we were all struggling with our real and imaginated “sin problems,” our minds were only busy with ourselves, “incurvatus per se” as you say, we did not even imagine we had the right or obligation to see or talk about the big picture.

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By: c http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13912 Wed, 21 May 2014 05:05:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13912 Agreed. Following bible study after bible study, while ignoring issues, will not solve the problems or make them magically disappear. I was reminded of the recent passage in the daily bread schedule, 2 Kings 22-23, where Josiah’s reading of the law leads him to turn his heart and soul to the Lord and directly address the problems which the law exposed and had always been there.

I have found the staff conference bible studies good opportunity for discussions because the very members to discuss issues with are there, gathered at that table, and most probably will not get up and leave early. Then I can hear what they say they’re doing in their chapters and ask questions face to face.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13906 Tue, 20 May 2014 23:19:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13906 Another thing that they really don’t like: a group of Americans speaking to one another without a Korean missionary present to act as a babysitter. That makes them nervous.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13905 Tue, 20 May 2014 23:13:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13905 Now that is an actual problem, Joe. Ignorance and arrogance are not escalator problems.

This past weekend I heard a similar situation. A fellowship leader wanted to gather some people to discuss something about prayer. He was told “You are being divisive.”

This is a trick ubfers like to use. It is called “turning the tables”.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13904 Tue, 20 May 2014 23:11:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13904 This is quite sad, though “ethnography” is not a simple word that is easily understood!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13902 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:54:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13902 Prior to last year’s staff conference, Sharon — who was on the staff conference program committee — urged the leaders to read Moschella’s book and set aside some time at the staff conference for ethnographic listening. Her suggestion was ignored. Not just by Koreans, but by Americans. They laughed at her. They had no clue what she was saying, and they didn’t bother to find out.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13901 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:45:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13901 I do truly hope this happens!!, but being a GHE pessimist, I just don’t see it happening: “Suppose a significant number of people decided en masse to disobey the program schedule. Suppose they surround the room where the senior staff is going to meet and ask to talk about serious issues. What could they do? Somewhere, someday, there will be a tipping point. Perhaps the tipping point is nearer than everyone thinks.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13899

The people who would pay a major fraction of $1,000 to attend the staff conf. (travel expenses + conf. fee) will unlikely do the above. I keep repeating my pessimism and realism hoping to be proven totally and completely wrong!

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13900 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:37:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13900 “…where the focus and agenda is Bible study followed by more Bible study. Why? Because Bible study will solve all your problems, while (ethnographic) discussions are simply a waste of time.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13895 I hope this is understood to be tongue in cheek!

I am in full agreement that healthy change will only occur corporately. I just don’t see that happening at the staff conf., for all the reasons stated above. But I hope I’m wrong.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13899 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:35:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13899 Before leaders try to make you feel guilty for not wanting to sit in one group Bible study after another, read this. More Bible study is not always better. If you are using Bible study to avoid reality, I believe that Jesus wants you to put down your Bibles and face reality.

http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/02/26/bible-study-is-more-always-better/

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13898 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:29:27 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13898 Exactly. Just because the printed program sheet says that you are supposed to do something at a given time, that doesn’t mean that you have to do it. Suppose a significant number of people decided en masse to disobey the program schedule. Suppose they surround the room where the senior staff is going to meet and ask to talk about serious issues. What could they do? Somewhere, someday, there will be a tipping point. Perhaps the tipping point is nearer than everyone thinks.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13897 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:21:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13897 Yes Ben, in the twisted, loaded ubf-speak, you are correct :)

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13896 Tue, 20 May 2014 22:20:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13896 So the problem is really a lot of “incurvatus in se”. We all unfairly leave the burden to one savior figure, such as you Joe. Why should all the change depend on one person? Hoping in some new GD won’t help either.

Healthy change will only begin when people wake up and realize the escalator stopped and all they have to do is walk up or walk down the steps. In that sense, leaving or staying isn’t the issue; but getting off the “escalator” is.

Corporate change is too much for 1 person. Joe and Sharon should not have had to bear that burden alone. Community change that is lasting will be most healthy when the entire community is involved, or at least a majority. If anyone isn’t onboard, let the chips fall where they may!

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13895 Tue, 20 May 2014 21:55:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13895 Ben, I will push back again… you just listed more escalator-like problems. The solution is so easy. Don’t go to the bible study. Skip the daily bread time. Heck meet during lunch or dinner if someone’s conscience is bothered.

If people want to talk they can. The best part is this… hint #2: Koreans want to save face right? Well that means they will never ever make a scene! You can literally skip bible study with a group of people and discuss what needs happen in your ministry.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13894 Tue, 20 May 2014 21:43:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13894 What I’m trying to say is simply that I wish I will be totally proved wrong, but it just seems so unlikely that any serious ongoing meaningful discussion on uncomfortable messy issues will (be allowed to) occur at the upcoming staff conf. where the focus and agenda is Bible study followed by more Bible study. Why? Because Bible study will solve all your problems, while (ethnographic) discussions are simply a waste of time.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13893 Tue, 20 May 2014 21:37:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13893 Tsk, tsk, BK, you realize that this is called sinful human fellowship and human thinking, which is regarded as anathema by all leaders in charge!: “What ubf needs is many to just start talking to each other.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13889 When you do so you might be so guilt-tripped into feeling that you are doing something really really unspiritual, unholy, ungodly and useless, so much so that you might w_t your pants if you consider doing it again!

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13892 Tue, 20 May 2014 21:09:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13892 Everything changes when you are no longer afraid of them.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13891 Tue, 20 May 2014 20:49:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13891 Yes Ben!

“(2) it is never easy to be “one” against the majority, who are likely older than you, who would prefer that you don’t address problematic messy issues. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13890

What ubf needs is many to just start talking to each other. We found this out in Toledo ubf when we leaders started talking to each other: We’re not alone! I’m not the only one who sees the problems.

We actually were very united in Toledo ubf, the main disconnect and disunity was with the Korean director.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13890 Tue, 20 May 2014 20:47:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13890 Hint: Ask yourself, what can any Korean master in ubf really do to you? The answer is: nothing, unless you keep feeding their supply of obedience. Be yourself. Be American. Stop asking “Why am I not allowed to have a meeting to talk about prayer?” Jesus is Lord!.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13889 Tue, 20 May 2014 20:44:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13889 Ben, Joe, and any ubf person reading this:

What we have here is a classic escalator problem.

At the next staff conference, don’t ask permission. Just do it. ubf will only change when the enablers stop enabling.

Just get off the escalator. You non-Koreans in ubf are just going to have to start talking to each other and pull the Koreans along. The alternative is to just keep submitting and suffering in silence.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13888 Tue, 20 May 2014 20:39:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13888 You can download and read this excellent short summary of Moschella’s Ethnography as Pastoral Practice: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CGQQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournalofchristianministry.org%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F10243%2F7053&ei=jbx7U9T1I9GgyATg1oHADg&usg=AFQjCNGvlBWEQM7czjQpWWe3UjeRh_wqvQ&sig2=VdsBAplc2P60fuyYCVSepQ&bvm=bv.67229260,d.aWw

If we would shepherd others according to this principle of ethnography (which is clearly biblical, humble and incarnational), tons of problems could be resolved and prevented.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13887 Tue, 20 May 2014 20:28:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13887 Joe, I wish that what you wrote would/could happen, but I foresee several problems: “…at next month’s staff conference, people who cared could bring up these issues again and again during the Galatians group Bible study, until those present have no choice but to talk about it.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13886

(1) the general atmosphere will not be one that encourages uncomfortable topics of discussion, but will likely be one of “humble yourself and learn from your leaders, who know more than you.”

(2) it is never easy to be “one” against the majority, who are likely older than you, who would prefer that you don’t address problematic messy issues.

(3) even if you did ask, it would very likely not lead to a satisfactory response, and even less likely for it to become an ongoing discussion and dialogue.

(4) the group Bible study teachers/leaders are not going to be the most senior people, but junior leaders who have been taught and trained to lead the Galatians Bible study. I’m quite sure that most of the “trained” group Bible study leaders do not have the freedom to read UBFriends or the freedom to address and discuss “problematic issues.”

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13886 Tue, 20 May 2014 19:54:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13886 Ben wrote:

“But it would require that UBF virtually does the exact opposite of what we have been doing for 50 years. We need to sit down and listen to each other painstakingly, instead of continually pressing to prepare for the next Bible conference and reaching the next target for our mission.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13883

If enough people decided that this had to take place, it would happen, regardless of what the leaders wanted. For example, at next month’s staff conference, people who cared could bring up these issues again and again during the Galatians group Bible study, until those present have no choice but to talk about it. It’s not disruptive to put aside superficial small talk and bring up the issues that truly matter.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13883 Tue, 20 May 2014 19:01:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13883 Chris, this may be hard for some in UBF to hear/read: “The amazing thing is how easy it is for UBF leaders to induce feelings of guilt in the ordinary members, while it seems totally impossible to induce any visible feeling of guilt in the UBF leaders when ordinary members complain.” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13880

I remember how easy it was for me to induce guilt in my Bible students and fellowship members if they missed worship services, or fellowship meetings, or failed to write a testimony, or to feed sheep. With guilt-tripping I was able to make others “improve their behavior outwardly” to act more in line with what I expected of them.

But rarely was I able to seriously listen to others and take to heart when they had some complaints or grievances toward me. I would try to listen to it, but would want to quickly get over it, and just move on!

Sharon, ethnography would certainly be the way to go to promote and improve relationships and understanding with one another, especially between missionaries and their “sheep” (indigenous friends). But it would require that UBF virtually does the exact opposite of what we have been doing for 50 years. We need to sit down and listen to each other painstakingly, instead of continually pressing to prepare for the next Bible conference and reaching the next target for our mission.

The latter is “so much easier” to do, because it would seem that we are advancing and moving forward, while the former would mean that we have to hear each other share things that we would rather not hear, and become intimate with each others wounds, brokenness and messes. Yet, that seems to exactly be what Jesus did on the cross.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13882 Tue, 20 May 2014 17:21:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13882 The amazing thing is how easy it is for UBF leaders to induce feelings of guilt in the ordinary members, while it seems totally impossible to induce any visible feeling of guilt in the UBF leaders when ordinary members complain.

My only explanation is that it has something to do with the different personality types of leaders and members in UBF, as explained in the book In Sheep’s Clothing:

“Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don’t care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they’re blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.”

The conclusion would be: Leaders must learn to feel guilty (guilt is good for them), sheep must unlearn to feel guilty (guilt is bad for them). Or maybe the sheep should start feeling guilty for other things, e.g. tolerating abuse and injustice, being too cowardly to speak up, or neglecting their families for the sake of mission.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13881 Tue, 20 May 2014 17:07:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13881 “Shame says, ‘I am wrong.'” (quote taken from the article).

Interestingly, in German language you can’t even say “I am wrong” (“ich bin falsch”) or “you are wrong” (“du bist falsch”). You can only say “Ich habe Unrecht” or something like that. Of course I was often treated with “du bist falsch” by the UBF Koreans anyway.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13880 Tue, 20 May 2014 16:58:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13880 I agree with Brian. There is a lot of conviction of guilt in UBF already. The problem is that people feel guilty (or even worse, make others feel guilty) for things which they should not feel guilty about. The other problem is that do not feel guilty for things they should feel guilty about. Both problems exist in UBF, and maybe are the crux of all matters we are discussing here.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13878 Tue, 20 May 2014 16:29:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13878 Ben you mentioned reconciliation. That word has surfaced in my heart and mind the past 3 years. Now that my story is told (book 1) and my analysis has been shared (book 2), I am compelled (by the Spirit I believe) to make reconciliation the theme of my 3rd book.

I’m preparing a series of articles about reconciliation, especially the Catholic sacrament of reconciliation. There is much to learn in this regard am I am more convinced than ever that the ministry of reconciliation is our mission, the work Jesus left us to do. If the cross means anything, I am convicted that we must believe reconciliation is possible and work for it.

I am searching for books and articles, like the article you wrote already: Is there glory and honor in reconciliation?

Any and all thoughts on what reconciliation is/is not, what reconciliation looks like or how to go about this critical ministry we Christ-followers have been entrusted with, I’m all ears!

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By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13877 Tue, 20 May 2014 16:22:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13877 Sorry my second comment was for you Ben.

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By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13876 Tue, 20 May 2014 16:21:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13876 Agreed. There is so much to be said about how good conversation comes about. I like the book Ethnography as Pastoral Practice by Moschella. So much good would come out of embracing this practice. To anyone serious about changing the tone of conversation, the real place to begin is with those in authority embracing this practice. Definitely not an easy task.

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By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13875 Tue, 20 May 2014 16:16:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13875 Good points, Brian

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13874 Tue, 20 May 2014 15:31:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13874 “…conversations about inequality are often engineered to avoid making privileged people feel guilty. Inequality exists because guilty people have produced societal systems that accommodate some people and alienate others. And inequality exists because guilty people continue to benefit from these unjust societal systems. All privileged people participate in our unequal societal structure – some perpetuate it knowingly, some perpetuate it unknowingly, and others resist it as revolutionaries. All who have ever perpetuated it knowingly or unknowingly are guilty. For them, experiencing guilt is a crucial part of the reconciliation journey.”

Donald Sterling, the owner of the Clippers, is getting thrown under the bus by everyone, perhaps because he articulated what many/some older priviledged white people feel, but which society today condemns outright, and rightly so. Probably this is an over-simplification.

Sovereign Grace Ministries having to own up for prior abuses and cover-ups, but the leaders obviously have great difficulty doing so honestly, openly and transparently.

In UBF it should be pretty obvious that the privileged class of people are the older missionaries and chapter directors. But now with the explosion of cyberspace they really cannot “hide” anymore. In my opinion, they have two choices:

(1) Continue to ignore, deny or minimize prior (and ongoing) authoritarian abuses, legalistic practices, “saving face” measures, excusing themselves, playing innocent, remaining silent (except for lambasting UBFriends as evil in their inner circles, and guilt-tripping anyone who actively supports or participates on this website).

(2) Face all those who are speaking up, sharing and expressing what they have experienced in UBF.

The right choice is obvious. But often if not always it will be more painful, and it WILL involve dying to oneself, especially to one’s ego and (groundless) pride.

A failure to chose #2 will NOT lead to reconciliation (healing, peace, being trinitarian), which is an ultimate expression of love and the cross of Christ.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13873 Tue, 20 May 2014 14:03:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13873 One more quick point that struck me: I’m not such a fan of the binary thinking, namely “guilt = good”. Guilt may be good and in some other contexts, guilt may be bad. I think guilt goes bad when we humans make it our mission to guilt-trip others.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13872 Tue, 20 May 2014 14:01:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13872 Thanks for sharing this Sharon. This is an excellent article that gets to something highly important to me. Negative emotions are not automatically bad. And positive emotions are not automatically good.

I love this quote:

“To be clear, shame is not from God and should never be used in reconciliation contexts. We’re all created in the image of God, and we’re all embodied souls who were planted in physical bodies by God. No one should feel shame for being born privileged, white, male, attractive, wealthy, etc.

But guilt? I can get behind guilt. Among other things, guilt is a wake-up call. Even God uses guilt to point out how much we needed Jesus to carry out the most costly rescue mission in history in order to save our guilty behinds. But God also distinguishes guilt from shame, pointing out that Jesus didn’t come to condemn us but rather to give us life.”

We need to be careful I think. The job of convicting using guilt belongs to our Lord primarily, as in John 16:7-9 and Jude 1:14-16. So I do not apologize for talking “too much” about various ubf issues nor do I mind causing us all guilt. But I need to temper this with not usurping the Spirit’s role of “convicter”.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13870 Tue, 20 May 2014 12:51:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13870 That article by Christena Cleveland is well worth reading and pondering. Members of ubf who tell themselves, “I’ve never done anything wrong; I’ve never abused anyone; the problems in ubf have nothing to do with me” are deluding themselves. If you say this, you need to stop the Pilate hand-washing. YOU are guilty. If you are continuing to attend ubf events, continuing to support ubf leaders, continuing to prop up the organization, without doing anything tangible to promote repentance and reform and accountability, then YOU are part of the problem. I’m sorry to say this, but it’s true.

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By: Sharon http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13869 Tue, 20 May 2014 11:45:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13869 fyi an interesting article on shame vs guilt:

http://www.christenacleveland.com/2014/05/guilt-is-good/

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13861 Sun, 18 May 2014 11:10:41 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13861 Thanks JohnY. This well articulates the frustrating conditional love of “easterners” and their “face” culture that suppresses “what’s really going on”:

“Asians come from a culture with a higher group, family identity. Yet love often times comes conditionally to this culture. …love in an Asian context shows itself to be conditional. That is, love is withheld as a function of performance. It’s no wonder that legalism is one of Satan’s largest ploys against the Asian-cultured church.”

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By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13860 Sun, 18 May 2014 06:05:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13860 The Four Spiritual Laws…for the Eastern mind

http://kingdomrice.wordpress.com/2014/05/09/the-four-spiritual-laws-if-it-were-written-from-an-eastern-perspective-law-1/

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13856 Fri, 16 May 2014 22:32:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13856 As I recall, those words were penned by Scott Moreau.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13846 Fri, 16 May 2014 13:52:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13846 Just watched Greg Boyd’s excellent sermon on Good News-ing: http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/good-news-ing#sthash.nyp9MDeb.dpuf

“In evangelism it is important to be Jesus before trying to evangelize. This means that our lives should reflect the beauty and grace of Jesus’ message long before we try to bring someone to Christ. And when we finally do speak with others about Jesus, we should do it in a non-confrontational way. In Acts Paul shows us that finding how God is already working in the group is a lot better than pointing out the things that group of people does wrong. The most effective way to announce that the Kingdom of God is near is not through words but actions.”

To learn to live out the above paradigm, I probably had to unlearn what I did the first quarter of a century of my Christian life.

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13842 Fri, 16 May 2014 12:51:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13842 Joe, what you wrote in 2009 (before UBFriends) with Yoon and Moreau is eerily still prophetic and playing itself out: “One implication is that when (UBF) deals with disagreement, it will largely be below the surface to the external observers. It will stay below the surface until it reaches a stage when it is either resolved or it becomes public. When the latter happens in a collective, it means that things are on the verge of going out of control and that a split is almost inevitable, as the very act of making disagreements public results in such a strong loss of face that only a split can resolve the tension.”

“In 2001 such a split took place in which Campus Missions International (www.campusmi.org) was formed. While the story is complex, one element is that those who formed CMI made a conscious decision to see themselves as a church rather than just a campus ministry. The subsequent lack of growth of CMI resulted in leaving UBF members leery about broadening their vision beyond being a campus ministry dedicated to world mission. This continues to play a role in how UBF frames its thinking about its values and vision as an organization.”

(Source: http://ubf.org/journal/UBF_Article_for_EMS_Publication.pdf)

Perhaps your thoughts have changed somewhat since you wrote or co-wrote the above 5 years ago.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13841 Thu, 15 May 2014 21:45:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13841 “Someone should notify everyone in Bonn: Because PC says they are all truly free in Christ, conferences are now optional; …”

The invitation to the conference explains that you don’t understand what freedom means, young padawan. It says: “Many young people have a wrong concept of freedom believing it means to do or not to do what you want. … How can we fight and overcome the wrong idea of freedom in the hearts of young people?”

So the purpose of the conference was to twist and redefine the meaning of the word “freedom” in the hearts of young people to mean “no freedom”. This new concept is then called “freedom in Christ”, so that it sounds like a Christian concept.

The logic is this: Freedom in Christ is freedom from sin. Sin is not wanting to do what UBF wants you to do. So freedom in Christ is the same as bondage to do the things UBF wants you to do.

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By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13840 Thu, 15 May 2014 20:49:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13840 “Take a sabbatical, a rumspringa, from all things UBF.”

In my time in UBF that’s something they would never allow to happen. It was important that you kept your connection with UBF continually, every week. Under no circumstance you were allowed to miss your BS or SWS, since this would “break the chain”. They would start to phone you, visit you, beseech you, threaten you, do everything so that you would not take a breath, get some time and distance to reflect what’s happening to you and what they are doing to you.

But I think it’s the best advice you can give to a UBFer: Please take a sabattical, have some time alone for yourself or within another community to reflect about your experience in UBF from a distance.

My chapter director told us that Christians are like glowing pieces of coal in an oven. If you separate one of them from the heap of coal (the church), then it would immediately cool down and stop glowing. With this picture he planted fear into us that as soon as we stopped attending UBF for a week, we would lose our faith. Most of the members really believed such ideas.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13839 Thu, 15 May 2014 20:13:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13839 Dr. Ben, I think that this is a cursory, but beneficial distinction. My guess is that easterners who are evangelized by westerners accept a gospel presentation or definition that is mainly contextualized to westerners. If such an easterner does not go back and re-contextualize the gospel to the idols/misconceptions of their own culture (as Jackson Wu has done) then most likely this area of their lives will remain un-evangelized. What’s worse is that when evangelizing westerners, they will perhaps pass on an understanding of the gospel which may contain over-simplifications of the westerners main issues as well as impositions of their own eastern culture.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13838 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:55:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13838 hm, perhaps more of a functional-relational view.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13837 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:53:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13837 In response to Joe’s question above about Wu’s stance on the imago dei, I would say from this excerpt he most likely holds a functional view:

Honor and shame are central questions in the past and the present. To be human is to be care about one’s face. Even God cares about saving his face. That in part is why I named my book Saving God’s Face. God wants to manifest his glory so that he would be honored as Father and King in all the cosmos. As creatures made in his image, we are most fully human when we reflect his honor in the world. To the degree that we disregard the Creator’s worth, we are shameful. To use more familiar language, we fall short of God’s glory (Rom 3:23).

Therefore, it’s a little too simple just to say that we should not seek face because that is “sin.” Likewise, we also can’t reduce the desire for honor/glory to sheer “pride.” With respect to God seeking honor, Piper has explained why God is not a “megalomaniac.” (http://jacksonwu.org/2013/06/06/honor-and-shame-in-any-context/)

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13836 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:47:50 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13836 This picture from Jackson Wu is perhaps apt in showing the result of one trying to “save face”: http://jacksonwu.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/faceless-man.jpg

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13835 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:36:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13835 This is from a review of Jackson Wu’s book “Saving God’s Face”: “Face” is social capital, a measure of one’s honor. Generally speaking, “face” manifests itself in the West in the prestige one accrues individually through achievements; therefore, the thought process of most Western evangelism consists in countering works-based righteousness. In contrast, in day-to-day life Chinese ascribe “face” in the context of maintaining social standing instead of amassing personal accomplishments…

Based on this description, UBFriends would be regarded by UBF as the worst and most horrible and terrible website, because UBFriends completely disrupts and questions UBF’s social standing and credibility; the “face” of UBF is dishonored and shamed. Thus, UBF seems unable to view constructive critiques as anything but disparaging, humiliating and shameful criticisms.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13834 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:35:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13834 I’ve asked myself the same question, Joe because obviously there are significant differences between the two cultures. But what Wu explains in one of his articles seems to resonate with my experiences in Korean Christian circles:

In preaching the gospel, it is imperative we recognize that many professions of faith are nothing more than expression of face. How many people participate in church activities for no other reason than it gives them a social network? How many “conversions” have been listed on missionary reports because some national wanted to give the missionary face by not refusing his invitation to “accept Christ,” even though they actually have no faith at all.

We are aware that money is a strong incentive for people to “profess faith.” However, how aware are we to the fact that face in certain circumstances can function in a similar way? In reality, as soon as the social group changes, those people who made professions will be silent just like Jesus’ brothers.

We could go on with other questions. What are our motives in ministry? Do some missionaries and pastors make sacrifices because of their faith or merely because they want face? What are the reasons we don’t listen to the ideas of others? We need to search our hearts in order to discern whether we have faith or simply want face.

Many “professions of faith” are nothing more than attempts to save face. If this is so, what are the implications for ministry in honor-shame cultures? (http://jacksonwu.org/2013/06/04/the-fine-line-between-faith-and-face-john-71-24/)

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13833 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:32:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13833 Yeah, I’m not exactly sure what Wu believes in this regard. But the article from patheos states that the eastern view of the imago dei is largely one of function; we are ambassadors or representatives of God. This could explain the missionary zeal behind the mission movement of South Korea; they felt mandated to represent God’s face to the world. This isn’t necessarily a bad or sinful thing, but if taken to the extreme it could lead to abuses such as imposing not only the gospel but ones own culture onto another’s. Also, an ambassador-only type of view does not lend itself well to either self-deprecating representations of oneself or mutual growth between both parties.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13832 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:26:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13832 Jackson Wu is Chinese, and he focuses on the Chinese understanding of face. I wonder if the connotations are different in Korean. Someone told me that the Korean word for face literally means “mask,” which suggests that saving face is mainly about pretending and hiding the truth. If face doesn’t have the same overtones in Chinese, then Wu’s explanations might not hold for Koreans.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13831 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:11:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13831 It appears as though his series on face is a bit disjointed. I search for “face” on his site: http://jacksonwu.org/?s=face

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13830 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:09:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13830 Thanks for the clarification. I just wonder what he thinks the image of God means, in an overall sense. And I assume that he will talk at great length about shame and the desire to hide it, based on Gen 3.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13829 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:01:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13829 And this is how the German messengers sounded: Korean accent

(I apologize in advance…)

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13828 Thu, 15 May 2014 19:00:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13828 Joe, perhaps my analogy was a bit of a misunderstanding or a far-reaching interpolation. Wu is beginning a detailed series on the concept of face. At the end of the first article he states:

Face is neither inherently good nor bad. It just is. To some degree, everyone is “inclined to pursue face and avoid shame” (趋荣避褥, qūróng bìrǔ). If you say that you don’t want face (不要脸, búyào liǎn), this conveys the idea that you have “no sense of shame.” So, “caring about face” (关心面子, guānxīn miànzi) is critical for being a moral person (http://jacksonwu.org/2013/11/12/talking-about-face-in-chinese/)

To me, this gets at the fact that we, as humans made in God’s image, have an inherent desire to be honored and respected or at least acknowledged as valid entities. So, while some aspects of face come from the concept of the image of God, the cultural concept as a whole is perhaps more tied to our ego or pride.

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13827 Thu, 15 May 2014 18:37:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13827 This this is how it happened.

Messenger: “WE MUST ACCEPT TRUE FREEDOM IN CHRIST!”
Audience: “AMEN!”

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13826 Thu, 15 May 2014 18:30:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13826 Back to Regular Programming (after the breaking news update from Bonn): Regarding saving face/honor and shame, my simplistic thought is that we Christians need constant renewal in the gospel (NOT constant reminders about mission), what Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Jeff Bridges and others have termed “preaching the gospel to ourselves” regularly/daily.

When our joy and delight, our identity and value, is not centered and rooted in the gospel/Christ, it HAS to find it elsewhere.

In the U.S. perhaps we might default to individualism and hedonism.

In Asian cultures, the default is back to saving face, enhancing our own honor, and an avoidance of shame, resulting in an inability to acknowledge wrongdoing.

Is this overly simplistic an explanation?

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13825 Thu, 15 May 2014 18:25:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13825 Someone should notify everyone in Bonn: Because PC says they are all truly free in Christ, conferences are now optional; 5am (or is it 4am?) Daily Bread and prayer meetings are now optional; staying at the center all night, every Sunday night, to write testimonies for sharing on Monday morning is now optional; obedience to PC is now optional. And they are free to read UBFriends and post comments here without any fear of retribution.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13824 Thu, 15 May 2014 18:03:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13824 Translations:

ubfism – “True Freedom in Christ” means “you are free to obey ubf leaders and demonstrate your loyalty to the ubf system”

ubfism – “Identity in Christ” means “you must wear the Shepherd X mask and pretend to be a campus shepherd”

ubfism – “all accepted” means “no one complained or spoke their mind and no criticism from exubfers was addressed”

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13823 Thu, 15 May 2014 18:00:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13823 Great. So should we expect a sudden influx of German ubfers sharing about their new freedom on ubfriends? Will PC send an apology letter to Chris? Should I look for an increase in sales of my books in Europe?

btw, how can I get this “true freedom in Christ”? How does PC know that “all attendants” accepted such freedom? What has been set free? Are people now free to leave UBF without trauma? Are their minds free of ubf heritage entanglements?

So many questions… :)

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13822 Thu, 15 May 2014 17:45:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13822 BREAKING NEWS UPDATES: FREEDOM IN CHRIST IS CATCHING FIRE (Bonn, Germany. Just posted on Facebook!):

Bonn UBF Easter Bible Conference Report
Bonn UBF, Germany May 13, 2014

The conference title was “True Freedom in Christ.” It was held at Mueke with 95 attendants. The 2012 EC title was “New Life in Christ” and 2013 EC title was “Identity in Christ.” God raised eight messengers among shepherds and second gens. There were 18 testimony sharers and six life testimony sharers. John Park Jr. from New Jersey delivered a powerful message from John’s Gospel chapter 19. The Holy Spirit worked so mightily at this conference that all attendants accepted true freedom in Christ from the power of sin and death. We are praying for one to one Bible study and discipleship ministry this spring and summer! (Bold mine.)

Peter Chang

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13820 Thu, 15 May 2014 17:30:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13820 Jackson Wu wrote a whole book on how to explain the gospel to people whose understanding of right and wrong is based on honor/shame rather than law/guilt. I haven’t read it.

I’m not sure if the eastern “face” is close to what the Bible means when it speaks of the image of God. There are at least three different ways to explain what image of God is.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/05/08/interpreting-the-imago-dei-rjs/

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13819 Thu, 15 May 2014 17:27:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13819 You know, maybe the real stumbling block has not been their culture, but rather their willingness to assent to a sub-culture within the ministry that insulated itself from healthy criticism. So in a sense, they accepted an unrealistic and self-aggrandizing face or identity created or fostered by this sub-culture. Perhaps they did this long enough so that this image solidified in their minds. In contrast, those in the reform movements rejected this identity and sought to exclusively hold on to the gospel instead.

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By: David W http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13818 Thu, 15 May 2014 17:17:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13818 Joe said:

“All the leaders have to do is just openly admit what everyone already knows, that the organization has a long history of problematic behavior…”

Jackson Wu says that the eastern concept of “face” has to do with one’s identity; it is closely analogous to the expression, “the image of God”. If one brings dishonor upon themselves or is shamed in any way, it is seen as an act of denigrating this image or identity.

At the heart of the gospel is this idea that the image of God within us has been marred by sin, therefore we need Christ’s work to restore this image. The early members of UBF, who are now the leaders that we’re speaking of, seemed to have accepted this aspect of Christianity, that they were indeed sinners and needed salvation. But somewhere along the way, they reverted back to the idea that face should not be dishonored for that would bring shame upon them all over again. Could it be that there is a fundamental flaw in how they process the gospel?

In a sense, Christ restores our dignity and worth as human beings. For instance, Christ’s merciful work on the cross takes away the penalty of our sin and its associated guilt; the cross is also an expression of his divine love for us. Not only this, but through the work of the Son, God the Father adopts us as his very own children. In a way, he restores our “face”. But this process is never complete this side of heaven; God is seeking to renew us on a daily basis (2 Cor 4:16) so that we can progressively grow into the image of Christ. Thus repentance and transparency are continually needed. So the process of seeking God’s definition of face will inevitably reveal that many of our heart motives and actions are dishonorable and shameful, even until our dying days on this earth; so there is this continual denigration of face. But this constant revelation isn’t a negative thing at all for it drives us more toward the One who can remedy these issues. Furthermore, when we realize that God wants to commune with wretches like us, it magnifies his grace even more. Perhaps this idea of shame by way of the gospel is so at odds with the eastern idea of preserving face that it’s extremely difficult for an easterner to grapple with this on a continual basis.

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By: BK http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13817 Thu, 15 May 2014 16:32:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13817 The first step is to buy one of my books :)

Shameless plug:

Andrew and Brian’s recovery books

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By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13816 Thu, 15 May 2014 15:21:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13816 “All UBF leaders have to do is just openly admit what everyone already knows, that the organization has a long history of problematic behavior…” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13814

Countless leaders in all spheres have virtually said the same thing: The starting point of change, reform and improvement is to acknowledge the current reality, whatever it is (usually something that is not optimal or good or right), which as you said “everyone already knows.” Barring this we’ll just be spinning our wheels.

This may be sobering for Americans to hear, but this is regarded as one of the best TV speeches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHSXUS0_1cThe first step in solving any problem is recognizing that there is one.” (I hope that when foreigners watch or hear this they do not gloat!)

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By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13814 Thu, 15 May 2014 15:00:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=7823#comment-13814 Ben, I found your last two questions odd.

“Is it even possible to truly be set free from our need to save face and to promote our own honor and glory through UBF?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13813

“But how does a strong honor/shame/saving face ministry not think of ourselves so highly and genuinely consider others better than ourselves?” – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2014/05/01/galatians-set-me-free-from-legalism/#comment-13813

It seems that you are asking:
* Is it possible for us to change without changing?
* How can we give up the thing that we value most, without actually giving it up?

All the leaders have to do is just openly admit what everyone already knows, that the organization has a long history of problematic behavior, and begin the process of recovery and reform by listening to knowledgeable people from the outside. If they are not willing to do it because it’s too hard, then just admit that this is the case. But don’t keep asking if there’s an easier way, because there isn’t.

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