hehaw!

oh heck, it’s alot of fun, that’s all that matters:)

religious humanism (man is great), that’s the greater evil than secular humanism (man is sufficient); religion must be trained to obey Jesus (He LORDS the sabbath, but the mere sabbath could never lord Him. amen HALLELUJAH

maybe sweet talk is not the solution for outofcontrol leaders, maybe reality check/brusqueness is just what the doctor ordered..

I’m glad you posted it. I’m glad you comment and critique. I don’t think you’re inappropriate at all. We could just smile and say nice words and placate each other and stroke each others egos, but then we’d face 50 more years of collateral damage.

In my opinion, if UBF shepherds feel that they have the liberty to comment and critique every little thing in their members’ lives, oftentimes in not-so-gentle ways, they should be able to take the same.

And to point out the obvious: it’s a good thing for a guest to complain about the food if it contains poison.

Thanks, Sharon, Brian, Joshua, Joe for sharing. I concur with what you wrote. I saw this article posted on facebook and as I read it I felt convicted. This is because I have heard from some that I come across (subtly or otherwise) as critical rather than grateful, negative rather than positive, discouraging rather than encouraging, being a downer rather than uplifting, “bashing” rather than praising, etc. You get my drift.

The account at the beginning of the article about a guest complaining to the host about how horrible his wife and her cooking is, somehow connected with me, when I considered that perhaps I might be the clearly inappropriate complaining guest.

For the record, I have no major regrets posting and commenting as I have, and I would (humbly) stand by all that I have stated. I am also quite sure that I would continue to do so. Yet, perhaps, could I not be more charitable and gracious toward those whom I am critiquing?

That’s why I thought it was a good/nice article for me.

“Does UBF really cause people to identify so strongly with its activities and methods that they begin to treat it almost as an intermediary for receiving God’s blessings, rather than Christ?”

Yes, I believe that is exactly a big part of what’s happened. That is one huge layer to fight through, and I call it the “evangelical layer”. The same problem exists in the Evangelical Protestant churches in America/West, and I can see it in all three areas of Christendom: Roman Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox.

We tend to think that “our church” or “our group” is the intermediary of God’s blessings. It was Jesus Himself who promised to answer our prayers and bless us. The whole balastic power of Apostle’s Paul’s writings hinges on the direct access to the throne of grace. This does not mean organazations should disappear; it means that to be considered a Christian organization the organization must be transparent.

Goods question for ubf and Evangelical churches in the West is this: How opaque is your organziation? How transparent are you? Can people see God through you?

ubf is about as transparent as a block of wood.

On a side note, I think I need to organize my thoughts about the “layers” of the ubf situation into an article. That way people can see what I’ve been navigating through. This one that you pointed out Joshua is very important, and I believe one of the last layers to fight through to get to freedom. If someone is talking about these kinds of issues, that person is well on their way to recovery from ubf.

Just kidding.

I guess it comes down to context. In certain contexts, that article would be fine, even helpful. In other contexts (e.g. when talking about our experiences in UBF), many of us will feel that it’s inappropriate.

But the following are far more relevant:

1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

> Sure, we will not be perfect until Heaven. But what measures could we take to remove malice, deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander from Christendom? It must be possible to do so. I believe this verse is not just speaking to individual believers, but the leadership and to the Body collectively. I believe we can obey this direction together, with the Spirit’s help. How much malice, deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander did I see among ubf leaders? And then I watched them do nothing to address it. People leave because hypocrisy is not called out and removed. People leave because they long for justice and love and grace and hope. Covinering up hypocrisy is most dangerous.

12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

> We here at ubfriends have accused ubf directors for doing wrong. But do we see good deeds among ubf directors? Do we see their good lives when we honestly examine them?

17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

> Do we see the leaders in Christendom showing respect to everyone?

20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

> When your sin is pointed out, enduring a beating is not the way of Jesus.

25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

> Do ubf shepherds continually say “Return to Jesus”? Do they lead people to Jesus who oversees their life or to themselves so they can oversee their life?

I have been listening to some excellent sermons from Ephesians explaining the riches we have in Christ. The preacher explained that many people who don’t know the full riches that are theirs in Christ, including self value/meaning/purpose/identity/worth/etc, look for those things in the world or in religion. That resonated with me. Isn’t it true that the typical life testimony basically says, “I was empty and had no purpose and meaning in life, but then through 1:1 Bible study I found life-purpose as a shepherd in UBF?” These sermons really pointed out how wrong and ultimately unsatisfying it is to derive my value/meaning/purpose/etc from a mission or group. Those things are already given to me in Christ, for God “…has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” (Eph 1:3)

Actually, I treated UBF like the conduit through which God’s blessings come to me. I received purpose from God through UBF campus mission. I received forgiveness from God through UBF Bible study. I received inspiration from God through UBF testimony writing. I received correction from God through UBF discipleship training. I received commendation from God through UBF approval. I was treating UBF as the distributor of God’s blessings. For me, Eph 1:3 read, “… who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing [in UBF].”

This really opens a can of worms. Why did I feel this way? Does UBF really cause people to identify so strongly with its activities and methods that they begin to treat it almost as an intermediary for receiving God’s blessings, rather than Christ?

Moreover, the blog smacks of the “blame those who leave” attitude that is so prevalent in UBF and the “in vs. out” dichotomy that is completely unnecessary.

Instead of blaming those who leave and excusing those who stay, let’s get real. Let’s root out the hypocrisy, as Brian said. Let’s get serious about the real reasons people are getting disenfranchised. Let’s take relationships, health, and holiness within the church as seriously (or even more) as the outreach to those outside the church. Let’s be known more for what we’re for than what we’re against.

Jesus talked a lot about hypocrisy. I say it is high time we did too.

If the church is a harlot, then the church is full of hypocrites. People of this day and age are DONE with hypocrisy. Yes we all fail– to error and to fail is to be human. But to learn nothing from failure, to deny failure and to intentionally promote failure–that is hypocrisy.

My article would be: “The church is a hypocrite and I hate it.” I believe more than ever that the yeast of this hypocrisy stems from an attempt to rebuild the Jewish sacrificial system in a Christian manner, which stems from a flawed idea of grace and a poor understanding of what happened on the cross.

I had a similar though, Joshua. I think we need to ask the question “Are people leaving the Church or are people leaving my church?” And furthermore “Are people leaving my theological position?”

I am outside the gates of Christendom. No evangelical Christian would accept me as a leader or teacher because I believe in the tenants of the outlaw preachers. I believe orthodox Christianity has gotten some things wrong. Yet I am not outside the Body of Christ. I am a Christian, following Christ on the journey of life. Sometimes I’m running, sometimes I’m walking, other times I’m being carried by others, sometiems I’m just standing or kneeling, yet I journey on, as well all do.

People will always and have always come and gone from churches and organizations. Our church is indeed too small, for the Church is not made up of 30,000 denominational organizations or even just the Roman Church or the Eastern Orthodox church. The Body of Christ is made up of all believers, which in my mind means all humanity because I can’t see inside people to know if they are “saved” or “unsaved”. All I can do, and all I believe I’m required to do, is to love and to serve– to love all and to serve all.

Some people leave a church or oganization because they don’t fit the vision the leaders present. Some leave because they have been hurt badly. Others leave becuase they were suffocated by controlling leaders. No one leaves because they are just complainers. We all complain. It takes deep wounds or excessive control or major diconnect with vision for people to part wasy with relationships that were built up over many years.

95% who read UBFriends are of a similar mindset. I am hoping that mostly they are critical thinkers…with a leaning away from habitual traditionalism that basically does not work, or that will work less and less with time.

Only 5% “dislike” suggests that the vast majority of UBF loyalists do not read, will not read and likely will never read UBFriends. This is somewhat troubling, though expected.

A nice recent post: The Church Is a Harlot, But I Love Her

Those of you who have Netflix should watch “House of Cards,” which has been nominated for countless Emmy awards. It’s produced and directed by David Flincher who directed “The Social Network” (http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/01/25/are-you-a-true-friend/) one of my favorite movies. It’s political intrigue, crafty maneuvering and diabolical dialogue is impeccably mesmerizing, devious and devilish. It’s about politics as usual in Washington D.C. Sadly it reminds me of the church, except that nobody physically kills anyone else (at least not today) :-)

Precisely. Or spoken plainly, simply UBF. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, its probably a duck. Or to put it more biblically, “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” (Mt 7:16)

Hellllooooooo! (owwg) My name is (uh) Benevolent Dictator and today we’re (ah) going to (ahem) talk about tacos! My wife is the mooossstt beauuuutiful woman in the world! Once I was a lazy, wicked, self-seeking, spoiled brat. But after 1:1 I am (ahem) a world-class (uhck) leader! Praise Jesus for tacos! But beware of HOT sauce. HOT sauce is Satan’s attack. Some who were once among us tried HOT sauce, and they became most fatalistic and wounded. I heard they (ahk) created a website to complain about tacos. How sad and wounded they must be. But praise Jesus for blessing tacos! Amen.

[back to our regularly scheduled program…]

I might be able to add a 3rd button…maybe something like “I’m conflicted about this”…

The words I share here publicly almost always echo the words of such leaders who left ubf. I firmly believe I have been called to give voice to their concerns while they recover from their time in ubf.

There are a myrad of problems however with the “run” advice. You have to fight throught the heritage layer, the personal layer, the family layer, the biblical layer, the Korean layer, the fundamentalist layer, the school layer, and the work layer.

It takes a lot of courage and faith, and until recently most who ran that gauntlet were shipwrecked for many years. One of my goals is to make that path easier and more accessible.

One young man I spoke with this year was entangled with the situation where his boss at work was his director at ubf. He was the “ancestor of faith” of their ubf chapter. He was 100% faithful for 10 years to ubf heritage. But he was suffocating. He decided it was so bad that finally he left without taking his last paycheck from his ubf boss (who had a self-supporting business). He felt so bad and was so full of fear that he packed up late at night when no one would see and just left. This did not happen in 1976. It happened in 2013. WTF?

I long for the day when ubf leaders don’t get diminished to feeling like criminals leaving in the night. Such leaders should be treated with much more dignity and respect. As of 2013, my sense is that most if not all ubf directors are still infected with lust for power and hunger for control and filled with selfish ambition to preserve the ubf heritage at any cost.

Yes I’ve done that twice now. ubf directors keep apologizing to me when I happen to meet them. But why? I accepted their apology 2 years ago.

I’m not “Big Brother”… but the answer is no we cannot tell what countries the likes/dislikes are from. Those are anonymous. The only stats tracked are which comment/article and the number of likes/dislikes. They are anonymous (so they provide a SHOT way of interacting here :)

I can tell you that we’ve had 1,891 buttons clicked, with 94.7% “like” and 5.3% “dislike”.

To expand on your question, are you not really simply saying, “I don’t love UBF,” but that you don’t love the aberrational, abusive, authoritarian attitudes (including being elitist, exclusivistic, evasive, superior, sanctimonious, condescending, gossipy, etc) that are present, and perhaps sadly quite prevalent in UBF IMHO?

Newcomers may not realize or notice such unhealthy attitudes. So they excitedly love UBF and the 2013 ISBC (which allows the older ancestors of UBF to justify such expensive conferences and to keep perpetuating it). But many who once attended and love UBF conferences eventually found them to be quite repetitive and predictable, and not really engaging or inspirational (except for the mystery non-UBF speaker!)

if human honor is overvalued, the battle will continue to the last member & disappear into nothingness rather than give in..

overseeking closure=avoidance; too much tension=anxiety

i pray enough tension may induce enough resolution so that enough closure may occur

more important than closure if spiritually healthy ways going forward

>>Is that okay to say? (about love)
Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

>>Does it really matter if I love a particular ministry or not?
No, priority should be on Jesus our loving father and the Holy Spirit.

>>Are we commanded to love a ministry, or does Jesus command us to love one another?
Love one another!

>>If I say that I don’t love UBF, does that offend the people I love who are in UBF? Should it?
Maybe if some people are the type to believe that you received something and should therefore remain forever in UBF. But, it should not bother people at all – hmmm…you already know it will.

If this describes your church I say stop right there. Think about what you are saying! Perhaps it makes perfect sense to take the advice of Roger Olson (and others) who say, “My advice to you is to RUN from such churches. And, if possible to expose them as aberrational and abusive – even if their doctrines are perfectly orthodox by evangelical standards.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2013/08/14/nine-reasons-to-run-from-a-church/

…..sorry to be going nuclear, it really isn’t for the fun of it.

So I hope and wish there would be more troublemakers for ubfriends. Come and share thoughts that challenge and stir us up! It is no longer painful. What is painful to me is all the words of flattery and appeasement I heard for so many years. Good leaders don’t just appease, good leaders are often tough and push you to be better. Flattery just diminishes the one you flatter. So I’m glad for your sharing here John.

There is no “great agenda” or “big goal” for this website. We are just a virtual community sharing our stories and thoughts and reactions right now. Perhaps one day we will publish incredible, polished articles. I’m not sure how or when this website will be used. For now I am rejoicing at the dialogues that have opened up worldwide.

Incidentally, I coincidentally bumped into my former pastor’s wife a day or so after she arrived home from the ISBC. We shared a warm hug and both said how nice it was to see each other. After our meeting, I felt something deep inside of my heart. I wanted to burst out and say, “I don’t love UBF, but I love you.” Of course, I didn’t because we had already parted. But that’s exactly how I feel; I don’t love UBF, but I so deeply love my former director and his wife and family.

Is that okay to say?

Does it really matter if I love a particular ministry or not?

Are we commanded to love a ministry, or does Jesus command us to love one another?

If I say that I don’t love UBF, does that offend the people I love who are in UBF? Should it?

Clearly “peace” that is an excuse to maintain an uneasy status-quo where reconciliation isn’t the primary motive, where sins do not need to be repented of, and where a radical love does not need to be offered is truly no peace at all. Clearly the same could be said about the sanctified “trouble” that attempts to disrupt an uneasy status-quo.

Sorry I guess I’ll admit that I’ve been somewhat of a trouble-maker with the clear intention to disrupt the status quo of our UBFriends community–and yes, there is a “status-quo” to this online community as well!

Ouchie. Now I’m being really irritating. Ok, I better stop.

I just have to say that truly Dr. Ben’s friend who first inspired him to write this article is got to be the ultimate “trouble-maker” here.

By the way, I dig the “like” and “dislike” facebook-esque function. Great work! I wonder if Big Brother of UBFriends can find out which countries these likes and dislikes are coming from. Just curious. I think we need a neutral option, however. Instead of a thumbs up or thumbs down, I need thumbs “neither-like-nor-dislike-and-I’m-still-thinking-about-it-because-I-cannot-perceive-the-emotional-content-of-your-post-enough-to-know-whether-to-like-it-or-dislike-it-but-only-thing-I-know-is-that-I’m-emotionally-reacting-to-it-and-trying-to-give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt-when-a-gentle-tone-of-voice-or-a-reassuring-expression-of-your-face-in-person-may-completely-change-my-reaction-to-your-post-or-help-clarify-my-understanding-so-that-I’m-not-prematurely-reacting-to-simply-words-on-a-page-but-responding-to-you-as-flesh-and-blood”.

Yeah, someone put a facebook thumbs symbol for something like that. Maybe a thumbs-wrestling symbol would work. Like this: http://www.wikihow.com/Image:Thumb-Wrestle-Intro.jpg

Because there the symbol brings out the wrestling/ambivalent aspect of the response, while showing a personal touch of two wrestling thumbs coming together as one unit through the messy process of wrestling together in online debate. And in the end, though it is a neutral response, it is one which both sides have thumbs up in the end.

That is peacemaking to me.

Random.

However, what does it mean to be a peacemaker?

I can quickly point out two things that are not sufficient.
1) Move on and (try to) live newly as though nothing ever happened
-this is seen through the video and also anyone can account for behaviour when various members left
2) Recognizing that there have been problems in the past, discussing the problems, desiring to change the problems, but never actually confronting the parties involved in a public manner.

I would agree that an ISBC is not the place to address peacemaking for present and former members. That being said, when and where would be a good time and place? It has to be public. I took advantage of the video because Joshua was used for the glory of the director. (To be crude it is like a poor man showing off his very new and expensive car.)

Others can argue that Joshua had something to gain by all of the attention – true, but that does not take away from the repeated handling of conflicts.

I joined that chapter, married and then had to go away, ahem….as a missionary to many over here. But, I am not asking for recoginition. I receive more than enough of that from my community of heritage so what is ubf in that respect…

If anyone wants to play peacemaker they must call together a tribunal hearing with unbiased third parties and confront all of the dirty details so everyone can grow in a healthy relationship with God. I already know what is happening with that chapter and family, but the details must remain confidential at this time.

Someone indulge the video (or all of the ISBC videos) please!

I am flattered by my daughter’s comment, but I am clearly not a “skilled” confronter. I may be a fearless one, which tends to push the envelope as far as I can, which may be disconcerting, distasteful and discouraging to some/many. Yet, it is what I feel I MUST do, and then to pray that God helps me to not be a “full-on jerk”!

My family dynamics of 6 (wife and 4 kids) is such that only I and one of 3 sons are “confronters” or “conflict creators,” while the other 4 are “conflict avoiders.” It makes for very delicate and fun family dynamics!

Still we can’t be discouraged by the silence. We have a significant and growing readership here. People may not respond, but they are reading and thinking about what we say.

That being said, revisiting past experiences is never easy. Some of us can do it while others can’t. There is a difference between the articles or issues that poke at the UBF system and those that are reflective personal accounts. I lean toward personal experiences myself – I just do.

Your critiques may help all of us. Some may even feel exactly the same way. Silently read as you can or share personally when you are provoked (or convicted). As you said we must remember to honor God in our speech.

Excatly one of the reasons why I didn’t become a holy troublemaker until after my wife and children found a healthy Christian church and after my wife was able to see the problems as well. Now they are safe, so I am free to speak up. That was never possible while we were still under the ubf authority.

Speak up while under ubf authority, and someone will “pray with” your wife. Speak up while reporting to your lifelong personal shepherd in ubf and you will be mentioned in the Sunday announcements as “needing prayers”. Speak up too much while on the inside of ubf and you’ll be chosen to be a messenger so you can be trained to be loyal to the heritage. That’s how it works. That’s how it still works today.

I am still getting in there and addressing things when necessary. The difference now is the obvious fact that when I act I must consider my wife and children. They are affected by every ripple in the water.

At some point, people will decide to tune out or shut off due to the self-preservation nature of human beings. I know several senior Americans in Toledo did just that– for over 10 years! They stayed “in” but were checked “out”. That is unhealthy for everyone.

A few weeks ago, a ubf leader and I discussed what we were seeking. He was seeking closure to the Toledo situation. I told him I was seeking tension. I have sought tension up to now because I see that external tension is effective to counteract the insane pressure applied by ubf shepherds on people.

When I discussed closure and tension with a pastor, he made a comment that sticks with me. He first said closure won’t happen this side of Heaven, most likely. And seeking tension too long could have adverse affects eventually. He said the best thing to seek might be resolution.

So I ask anyone who cares to answer. What would resolution look like in our situation? Could we find resolution so that exubf is not shamed or demeaned and so that ubf is not torn apart?

All exubf people know this reality all too well. Once you are “out”, you are written out of ubf history with the implication that you have “run away” from God and abandoned your “mission”. These are lies.

It is not exubf who creates division, but ubf directors who create division after division by continually rebuilding the wall of hostility in a cunning passive-aggressive kind of way.

To be a peace maker means you must directly deal with a painful situation and not avoid it. Just look at the ISBC video for Canada. You can see my wife and I are attached to no chapter at all. Also, you can see a very prominent chapter has been omitted in place of the two others who almost never get recognition at such a gathering. (The trouble making part is mentioning some but not all.) Honestly speaking no one knows the chapter director anymore – that is none of the second gens and younger sheep know who or where but they certainly know who was missing from the conference and this video. Where’s you know who….?

Since we are all fallen, fallible, fragile and flawed, our peace-making attempts could be biased blatant injustice and favoritism, while our trouble-making attempts can be sanctimonious, self-righteous and driven by vengeance and vindictiveness.

I wrote back then that my leaving UBF was for the sake of Apostolic unity in 1 Corinthians 12:1-31. I believe the church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. (And yes I’m currently reading Your Church Is Too Small.)

If you think Western Christian denominations are fractured (having over 30,000 schisms) wait until Korean Christianity hits the mix. Korean Christians tend to split their churches every few years, which we have all witnessed in ubf ministry. Korean Christianity will bring tenfold division to the West.

However I believe that if ubf can find God’s resolution for this ubf/exubf matter, ubf has the opportunity to bring the healing balm of the gospel to splintered Korean churches. (Just my 2 cents musings…)

Generally church leaders do not like nor want to have to deal with troublemakers in the church. They view them negatively and critically; they caricature troublemakers in numerous unflattering ways in their attempt to silence them, marginalize them, diminish their influence, and do away with them. For instance, some have suggested that UBFriends be shut down.

But this post is basically saying that troublemakers are good for the church. Not only so, the “troublemakers” are Christians who worship God and adore Jesus. Therefore, they persistently defy and challenge the leadership (that wants to maintain the stale status quo), not out of disrespect, but because they worship God and adore Jesus.

Sorry for such a long labored answer and response to a simple question. As Abraham Lincoln once apologized, “I am sorry I wrote a long letter, because I did not have time to write a short one.”

Stephen asks what does the following statement mean (switching words?):

“Trouble-makers worship God, recognizing that adoration is the ultimate act of disruption.”

Yes Ben, that is one of my main points. I am keenly aware of this, which is yet another layer in the twisting web of the ubf situation. It is one of my highest priority concerns (believe it or not). We need to keep in mind the near-suicidal tendancy of some of these leaders. Many of them have a Buddhist/Taoist view of repentance, so they will sit there and take their floggings, then just keep moving in the same direction.

There were several such “flogging” meetings in Toledo. I refused to participate. Such meetings do not help the one being flogged. We desperately need the Christian idea of repentance and healing, which does not include self flagellation nor leader flagellation.

Some ubers may take my words personally, but they should not do so. I am untwisting the ubf heritage and creating a space for accountability based on bilateral, worldwide communication. In no way to I want to see flagellation going on. Swift and decisive action is needed to get ubf people on the path to healing.

You might wonder, “How can they suffer more when they were like untouchable and unaccountable leaders who bossed over all others in their UBF chapter?”

They suffer so much partly because many of our missionaries and shepherds live with a strong overpowering sense of indebtedness: they want to pay back their debt to Christ, and they expect you (their sheep) to pay back your debt to Christ and to them. This causes a degree of suffering that is tremendous! Then when some of you “run away,” their suffering increases even more!!

So I respect and admire their ability to take on such a tremendous degree of suffering and indebtedness upon themselves, even if it is uncalled for.

“Makes me think that if UBF could justify surgery to stop trouble makers – they would!”

> These are painful words to us old-timers. There was time when SL ordered missionaries to have eye-lid surgery and get perms to look less Korean. Let’s not forget the issues with ubf go beyond culture. There are many Koreans who suffer as well.

“Don’t just leave ubf, at least speak up publicly.”

> Will do.

No more accomodation. No more coddling.

As Scripture says, I gave the ubf missionaries double honor, covering their mistakes, translating their harsh words into more palatable words, defending them even when they failed, and spending countless hours working out a careful justification for their 12 point heritage.

That’s over now. The cycle will end. The pattern will lead to new places.

I agree it’s wonderful to not constantly have to repeat myself, water down my vocabulary, and speak v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y to make myself understood.

“A natural donkey, which carries sacks to the mill and eats thistles, can judge you – indeed, all creatures can! For a donkey knows it is a donkey and not a cow. A stone knows it is a stone; water is water, and so on through all the creatures. But you mad asses do not know you are asses.”

From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 360 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41

Just to state the obvious: this is not directed to anyone I know personally!