I will reply for your comments briefly.

1) “Jaeman, are you sure you don’t want to convince me?”
Deep down in my heart, sure, I want you to believe the word of God is sufficient in your life; every aspect of your life, so that our lives may be abundant because of Jesus, (Jn 10:10) because of all the sufficient truth in the Scripture.( 2 Peter 1:3) Sure, I hope that we might prosper whatever we do through meditating the word of God day and night. (Psa 1:2,3)

But I know I cannot convince you: I am not God; not speaking the truth nor the Holy Spirit who convict the hearts of men. (Jn 16:8) But I pray that we might trust His word in every situation, every second of our lives, wholeheartedly and live it out in life to know Him more, to love him more, to glorify Him. That’s all.

2) “Anyway, why only 2 divisions? How did you come up with that? Where in the bible does it tell us to divide in such a way?”

Thank you for your good point: as I said, it was my personal understanding, which was helpful for me to understand the OT law and the law of Christ. But as you point out, I was clearly wrong. Thanks again for pointing out. I will be more careful about this.

3)”The 613 mitzvot (commands) are typically divided into 3 codexes”:
1. Moral Codex (laws about purity)
2. Ceremonial Codex (laws about religious practice)
3. Social Codex (laws about society interactions)

Thank you for the information. You studied about the Jewish commentaries. It is amazing to me. Keep up the good work as a student of the truth.

As for me, I do not think I can study the Jewish commentaries. Maybe later, but right now, I don’t think I can. Anyway, I learned something new. Thank you.

4) “If we do this, then when we observe the Sermon on the Mount, we see that Jesus addresses all 3 codexes in his sermon. But Jesus addressed them in reverse order. Instead of 1, 2, 3 Jesus addressed them as 3, 2, 1. I see only an all or nothing proposition in Jesus’ mind and in the Scriptures in regard to the law. I have been going through the Sermon on the Mount extensively this past year.”

Very intersting, good point. I will study about the Matthew’s Gospel more deeply, keeping it in my mind. This might be helpful for me to understand the law of God and the law of Christ more deeply.

5) “And what did Jesus do right after preaching the Sermon on the Mount in which he addressed all of the law? Jesus touched a leper! He broke all the cleanliness laws in one event! Jesus was sinless, yes, but he did not keep the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. That is one reason the religious leaders were SO upset at Jesus.”

this part I might diagree with you. I might be wrong. I will just share my thought on it. This is my personal opinions; which is incorrect a lot of time.

Based on the flow of the context, I think Jesus touched a leper, not as law-keeping man, but law-giving God; as Savior, Messiah who can forgive their sins with His own death.

Mat 7:29 mentioned Jesus taught them as one who had authority and not as their teachers of the law. personally, it is very possible that in chapter 8, Matthew actually describes Jesus as one who has authority, as one who shows His authority, not as just another sinful man?

Big If; if Jesus touched a leper as Savior, as sin-forgiving God, This episode does not talk about keeping the law.
This episode talks about Jesus’ authority and power as Messiah.

Since the Matthew’s gospel was given to the Jewish people, it is very possible Matthew describe Jesus as Law-givng God so that they might accept Jesus as their promised Messiah.

And in verse 8:4, Jesus commanded the leper to follow the Moses’ law; here Jesus was described more like as law-giving God commanding his creatures to follow God’s law.

In Summary,
Again, thank you for the information.

Anyway, why only 2 divisions? How did you come up with that? Where in the bible does it tell us to divide in such a way?

The 613 mitzvot (commands) are typically divided into 3 codexes:

1. Moral Codex (laws about purity)
2. Ceremonial Codex (laws about religious practice)
3. Social Codex (laws about society interactions)

If we do this, then when we observe the Sermon on the Mount, we see that Jesus addresses all 3 codexes in his sermon. But Jesus addressed them in reverse order. Instead of 1, 2, 3 Jesus addressed them as 3, 2, 1.

I see only an all or nothing proposition in Jesus’ mind and in the Scriptures in regard to the law.

I have been going through the Sermon on the Mount extensively this past year.

And what did Jesus do right after preaching the Sermon on the Mount in which he addressed all of the law? Jesus touched a leper! He broke all the cleanliness laws in one event! Jesus was sinless, yes, but he did not keep the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. That is one reason the religious leaders were SO upset at Jesus.

Anyway, I think it’s problematic to create such an artificial separation into different kinds of laws when the Bible obviously does *not* make such a separation. Jesus never said “you need to fulfill these kind of laws, but not the other kind.” I rather believe the proper solution is to stop thinking in terms of “law” at all, to not live under whatever kind of law, and to live under grace instead (Rom 6:14).

If we are not under the law any more, we should not worry about being condemned for not understanding or fulfilling everything 100%. What counts is only our willingness in both trying to do good and repenting if we failed; we can trust that God is forgiving. If you still struggle with doubts about that, and are anxious to keep all laws (whatever laws, ceremonial, moral, UBF laws), you just haven’t fully understood what it means to live under grace. I think Romans 8:15 summarizes it best: “So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, ‘Abba, Father.'”

If we think of God as our heavenly father, we’re on the right track. Think of your own children. Sure, I want my son to obey me, and I want that he follows my instructions, but I do not want to raise him as a fearful robot. I have seen kids of fundamentalist Christians who were so well-behaved, polite and submissive that it was already scary. I don’t want such a son who obeys me out of fear and does not have a mind of his own. And I believe God doesn’t want such children either.

Sure, there is always some danger if you live too “freely”, the danger you fall into sin. But on the other hand, if you live too “compliant” then there is the other danger, that you become a hypocrite which is just as bad or even worse. It is much easier to repent of an obvious sin than to repent of a stance of self-righteousness.

Personally, I think it would be easy for us to understand the Law of God, if we divide the law of God into two categories; Ceremonial Laws and Moral laws. And the moral laws can be summarized into two commands: love God and love others. And moral laws in NT are called the law of Christ. [1 Cor 9:21, Gal 6:2]

I. Ceremonial Laws and Moral laws
Moral laws were given to people of Israel to show how to live righteously before God. And ceremonial laws were given to teach them how to be righteous again after disobeying the moral laws. God knew that people of Israel would disobey His moral laws and be guilty and would be condemned by his moral laws. So God opened the door for them to be forgiven by the ceremonial laws.

In ceremonial laws, God provided the substitute death repeatedly. Because these repeated substitute death, supposedly they should know that these ceremonial laws are not perfect [Heb 10:1-18] and by observing the laws, no one will be justified [Gal 2:16] they should wait for the true atonement of sin since the laws ultimately guides us to the Christ who is the Savior. [Gal 3:24]

Unfortunately, people of Israel thought they could be righteous before God through observing the ceremonial laws even when they did not obey the moral laws 100%. They become legalistic [like Pharisees] and self-righteous.

Judaizer in Galatians insisted that people including Gentiles should keep the ceremonial laws to be righteous before God apart from the faith in Jesus. But to be righteous before God, we need to keep the all the laws, not just the ceremonial laws but also all the moral laws; but their focus was ceremonial laws only [although they did not keep the moral laws, they did not know that they disobey the moral laws; they only saw the ceremonial laws only; because they were hypocrite] In this sense, Judaizer talked about keeping the ceremonial laws to be righteous before God, not moral laws.

According to the Scripture, ceremonial/moral laws were a shadow for Jesus. [Heb 10:1] Therefore when reality comes, the shadow is not necessary. Ceremonial laws and moral laws were fulfilled by Jesus.

And the condemnation of the ceremonial/moral laws was abolished on the cross. [Colossians 2:14][the moral laws itself was not abolished but fulfilled by Jesus; moral laws are still effective and will judge unbelievers accordingly]

All the ceremonial laws in OTs were fulfilled and abolished by the life and death of Jesus once for all. [Heb 10] Therefore, in NT, believers do not have to keep the ceremonial laws to be righteous before God.

[Keeping the ceremonial laws without the purpose of being righteous before God is being done by the Messianic Jews. It is not condemning because they keep the ceremonial laws according to their traditions, but they did not do that to be righteous before God, they believe they are justified by faith in Christ, Christ alone; Gal 2:16]

II. Moral laws
Moral Laws was also fulfilled by Jesus. Jesus lived perfect and sinless life. Whoever believes in him, will be considered as righteous before God, not because of our own righteousness but because of Jesus’ righteousness.

Because Jesus fulfilled the moral laws as well as ceremonial laws, it does not mean that moral laws were abolished and we do not have to obey them. It does not mean that we can do whatever we want to do since we are forgiven by faith. [It is condemned by Paul in Romans 6:1]

Although we do not have to keep the ceremonial laws, but still we are obligated to obey the moral laws as believers.

We need to know this;
1) Believers are righteous before God by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone according to the Scripture alone by the Holy Spirit alone. Only the atonement of Jesus is sufficient for us; We are not justified by our obedience to the law of Christ [moral laws].
2) Superficially, keeping the law of Christ [moral laws] does not make us more righteous than others who relatively do not keep the moral laws.
3) Our human righteousness is filthy rags compared to God’s high standard.
4) Keeping the law of Christ 100%, all the time [from the birth to the death, without missing one law, even one second] is virtually impossible for sinful men like us. We just cannot keep the moral laws due to our sinfulness.

The more we try to keep the moral laws, the more we realized that we cannot keep the moral laws just even one second, the more we realized that we are terrible sinners before God. [Romans 7:7-25]

The more I know I am sinner, the more I trust in Jesus.
The more I trust in Jesus, the more I know who God is: God’s love, grace, mercy, glory, power.
The more I know who God is; the more I love God.
The move I love God, the more I want to do what God wants us to do.
The more I want to do what God wants us to do,
the more I have stronger desire to keep the law of Christ,
the move I have stronger desire to keep the law of Christ, the more I rely on the Holy Spirit.
the more I rely on the Holy Spirit, the more I can obey the law of Christ in the Scripture.
[Love God more, love others more; but not even close to the level of the law of Christ]

By doing this, I am struggling; knowing my sinfulness more deeply and getting to know the grace of God more deeply and loving God deeper and loving other better than 20yrs ago [first time I was born again]

III. the Law of the Christ
Personally, the law of Christ goes one step higher than moral laws in OT. [I might be wrong]
In OT, love your neighbor as yourself; but in NT, we should love our neighbor as ourselves and among believers, we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

When I mentioned about obeying the truth in the Scripture, I meant the law of Christ [moral laws: in summary, love God with all; love your neighbor as yourself] not ceremonial laws.

I hope this might be helpful for you to understand the law of Christ.

You mentioned several things that help me understand your attitude toward obeying the law. I agree with many of your statements. But this statement strikes me as different from your main thought:

“I am tremble before God and ask God’s help to understand the truth in the Scripture and to obey it by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Since the topic here is “bible alone” and “bible supreme”, how would you reconcile this with Galatains 3, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, specifically:

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Colossians 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Why would we strive to obey the law as our main goal in life if striving to obey the law is now cursed? What regulations would we then strive to obey, if the regulations were abolished in the flesh of Jesus? What written code am I to follow if the written code in the Bible was canceled, taken away and nailed to the cross?

Please answer anyone, someone! I have not found anyone to answer this except “it is a mystery”… or “just repent”… or “your soul is in danger for such questions…”

This is similar to my question above, Who decides?

These days I am answering these kinds of questions with these thoughts, not necessarily in this order. From all my reading about how to recognize a cult, I have siphoned out the following:

1. Do they deny or promote reason? I am done with “just trust me” or “submit to me” or “just imitate me” type thinking. God is a God of reason, and never does He call us to reject reason. Certainly I know that there is value to “believe first”, because often in life we do need to take a leap of faith. We find that we understand much after such a leap of faith. But I am sick of Christians who don’t use their mind. Never again will I reject my critical thinking ability.

2. Do they deny or promote love for all humanity? I am done with segregating humanity into “us” and “them”. I seek to embrace all human beings, even those who tell me I am apostate or are concerned with my soul being in danger. Never again will I divide people into various groups. It seems there will be some kind of division on Judgment Day, but I choose to leave that up to God.

3. How do they define the gospel? Every group has a “gospel”. Even in business I find companies have their own “gospel”. To Apple it may be the iPhone or iPad. And they are evangelistic about “changing the world”. Every church group or organization also has a “gospel”. The questions I now ask are like this: Do they teach freedom, fulfillment and forgiveness? Do they talk about peace, the glory of Christ, the kingdom of God and salvation by God? Do they talk about the grace of God? Those who teach a gospel of self-help or a gospel of authority or a gospel of control or a gospel of repentance are not teaching the gospel messages Jesus proclaimed. Jesus lived and died to bring to us the gospel messages more clearly than those messages had been communicated in the past.

The big question for me is this: Who decides?

Let’s say there is a book written by someone. Or someone makes a claim. Who decides if that book or person is “teaching Scripture” or not? Chris’ comments here also capture other questions that come to my mind as I read your thoughts.

It seems to me that many Protestants have turned to one of several theological positions to “decide”, such as TULIP. I find such an approach has contributed to thousands of divisions.

One the issue of “who decides”, I am starting to appreciate the Catholic Church these days. They’ve been wrong, but through councils and declarations, they have corrected several things. I don’t agree that we need a Pope, but I admire the clarity. Maybe it is the same in ubf. In the past, under SLee, “who decides” was always clear. But submitting to one man’s authority like this also leads to division.

Also, to repeat my question, if the Bible + the Holy Spirit together are sufficient, why then all this additional fuss, like Bible study with shepherd and questionnaire, conferences, Sunday sermons, testimonies, rebukes by shepherds, “trainings” etc.? Are these things needed to “evoke” the Holy Spirit? Sure, if we do such things like conferences, if feels like the Holy Spirit is evoked, but isn’t it strange that the “Holy Spirit” convinces people of different things at difference conferences, e.g. at a UBF conference versus a Pentecostal Conference versus a “Westboro Baptist Church” conference? How do we discern the spirits? If you answer “with the Bible”, then we’re starting to turn in circles.

You say that “the truth and false is mixed in the Muslims”, but isn’t it the same with Christians? There are so many different demoninations and beliefs about the Bible, there are Catholics, there are Russian Orthodox, there are Protestants and there are many many different Evangelical kinds and cults that all teach something different, and it’s much harder to recognize the weong teachings, because they all claim to be based on the Bible, and all sound more or less plausible, and all claim that what they do is backed up by the Holy Spirit (have you ever been at a Pentecostal church)? Of whom can we be sure that they teach us the *real* truth? It seems many UBFers (including me when I was in UBF) believe the indicator is which church or shepherd managed to lead us to God. But is this really true? Then in whatever church you have been invited, you need to follow their line of interpretation until the end?

6. Regarding “You’ve failed to convince me of “bible only” thinking by quoting verses from the bible.
I did not plan to convince you; the Scripture speaks for itself. I think we must meditate on the each verse which speaks the sufficiency of the Scripture. Personally, if the Scripture says about its sufficiency just one time; that’s good enough for me; I do not need to hear 2 or 3 different verses; but God in his grace and mercy, provides us multiple verses through the Scripture.
[Psalm 19:7: 2 Tim 3:15,16,17; 2 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 2:2; James 1:25; John 17:17; Acts 20: 32; Colossians 2:3,4,10; 1 Cor 2:13; 2 Cor 3:5; 9:8; 9:11; 1 Cor 2:15,16; 1 John 2:20; and more]

7. Regarding “completely addressing every human situation for all generations? No”
I believe some areas are explicitly described multiple times; some areas are implicitly described just one or two, some areas [non moral/non essential issues] are not mentioned specifically; but we can discern/deduct about them because of the given explicit and implicit truth. Scriptures gives us the principles in the economy of God. It does not mean that Scripture is not sufficient. In my opinion, the Truth in scripture is transcendent in cultures or generations. If we get the truth in the Scripture only applicable to this generation, it is very possible our interpretation or application is wrong.

8. Regarding “the authority over us”
What I mean by was that believers are not obligated to obey to any books except the Scripture.
If you want to obey what other books have to say if that is not biblical, it is your choice, but you cannot serve God and others at the same time. We are slaves to God or slaves to something else in this world.

What other books say was consistent with the Scripture, probably it is to safe to quote, use or even preach, but I rather not because that is not commanded. I am commanded to meditate [read/listen/obey] the Scripture day and night. It is just my small conviction. That’s all.

9. Regarding “how we are to obey all His commands”
We must think about the purpose of the Law in the whole salvation plan. In that perspective, why did God give the Israel the law? It is a good question. Apostle Paul said many things about the law in the book of Romans. One thing is that the law was given to us so that we can realize that we are sinners before God. The law condemns the sinners; we are all sinners; therefore the law condemned the world before God. (Rom 1-3)

The more we struggle to obey the word of God, the more we realized that we cannot do it; the more we realized that we are terrible sinners before God. (Rom 7)

Because of the law, we know the character of God: holy, just, righteous
Because of the Law, we know that we are sinners;
Because of the law, we know that we are under the wrath of God.
Because of the law, we know that we must die shedding blood.
Because of the law, we know that we need a savior.
Because of the law, we come to Christ, repenting of our sins.

Because of the law: Jesus kept the law to live a perfect life without sin,
Because of the law: Jesus died on the cross on our behalf; forgave all our sins once for all.
Jesus’ death makes us ‘not guilty’ in the court of God.
Jesus’ perfect sinless life makes us righteous before God.
Because Jesus’ perfect righteousness was transferred to us by grace through faith in Christ according to the Scripture, whoever believes in him [in Christ] will be considered as righteous before God.

In summary, only way to be righteous before God is to keep the law. We cannot keep the law because we are sinful. Jesus is the only one who keeps the law. Sinless Adam failed, but sinless Jesus did it. Because of Jesus, we are considered righteous as if we keep all the law. By the power of the Holy Spirit, instruction of the Scripture, we obey the law of Christ.

10. Regarding “What does “divide the word of God” mean?”
What I meant was “correctly handle the word of God” (2 Tim 2:15) Forgive my korean style english [konglish] As you know, many people including UBF, wrongly interpret the Scripture based on their own experiences, or traditions or biased theologies.

11. Regarding we shouldn’t rely on the “bible alone”, but also on our research and on church history?
With my limited knowledge, if we study the history of the church, what we struggle right now, they also struggled more deeply. So we can learn from their mistakes or successes[in interpretations or applications] but again, I believe it does not deny the sufficiency of the Scripture because all the truth is in the Scripture already not from Augustine, Luther, Calvin or Jonathan Edward, or John Wesley etc.

12. Regarding “Each person is responsible for their understanding of the Scripture?”
If we do not do what scripture commands us to do; if we do what the Scripture commands us not to do, we are responsible. Our understanding of the Scripture always connected to our behaviors; conducts. That’s all I meant.

13. Regarding the elevating the bible to idol status;
I am not sure; do you think I worship the Bible, not God himself?
I hope not. I worship God and fear Him; therefore I am tremble before him and his words.

14. Regarding “I don’t claim to know everything, I just claim to be following Christ and exploring His magnificent gospel.”
Same to me; personally, you know more than me; I am a just layman. I do not know anything apart from the grace of God.

One: I do not have any desire to persuade/convince you to believe what I believe. [because I believe it is the work of the Holy Spirit through the word of God]

Two: I just want to know the truth. I have no desire to criticize anyone.

Three, I fear God and His words; I am afraid to add to the word of God and subtract from the word of God. Therefore, I am tremble before God and ask God’s help to understand the truth in the Scripture and to obey it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1. Regarding “we need others’ thoughts to enrich our faith”
Because I learned the truth in the Scripture from others, it does not mean that I learn something apart from the Scripture. Pastors did not invent the truth that is foreign to the Scripture. What they taught me was in the Scripture [clearly or subtly], but I did not understand it before. And when I understood the Scripture better because of them, I gave them a credit, but ultimately gave it to the Scripture, and to God who is the source of all the truth. So as far as I am concerned, I learn the truth in the Scripture [primary].

2. Regarding the traditions, organization and other inspirations
Some traditions/organizations/inspirations are biblical, some are not. Some traditions can be helpful and some are rather harmful. If traditions abolish the Scripture, we should reform it continuously with passion for the truth; but because people are so sinful that some of us did not want to change the traditions, arguing that traditions are the truth in the Scripture. Unless the Scripture is illuminated by the Holy Spirit to those who seek the truth, we know nothing.

3. Regarding “inspiration from Muslims”
If the truth and false is mixed in the Muslims, sometimes it is not easy to discern what it is true or false without damaging each other. If some of Muslims teachings are true and confirmed in the Scripture, that does not mean that Scripture is not sufficient. To me, it means that Scripture is the only truth; others should be evaluated by the Scripture. just my opinions; if you want to study the Muslims to know the truth, I encourage you to do your best for the glory of God. God will be exalted by your hard work if it is from the faith. But I also warn you that there are deceiving evil spirits in the cults [if you consider UBF is cult; it is hard to accept anything from UBF if it is really true]; you must be alert otherwise, you might be deceived without knowing it, just like Eve.

4. Regarding “who guides us into all truth? The Holy Spirit.
Regarding the Holy Spirit, I do not know Him very much, partially due to lack of understanding of the Scripture in UBF leaders and partially lack of understanding of the Scripture in the church in general and mostly due to my laziness; [a shame on me].

My limited understanding amount nothing but I am forced to share my opinion.

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and/but the Holy Spirit speaks only what Jesus said. (Jn 16:13,14)And Holy Spirit is the author of the Scripture. (2 Tim 3:16a) He cannot contradict Himself against the book which He himself wrote.

Holy Spirits works mysteriously (Jn 3:8a) but works when people hear the word of God. (Acts 10:44)

Holy Spirit is different from the word of God, but sometimes
described as the same nature and function.
The sword of the Spirit which is the word of God (Eph 6:17) The words I have spoken to you are spirit (Jn 6:63)
We are born of the word of God (1Peter 1:23) and we are also born of the Spirit (Jn3:6,8)

The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are so closely connected in the Scripture. Humanly speaking, separating the Holy Spirit from the Word of God could be very hard.

It is clear to me in the Scripture that Independent work of the Holy Spirit apart from men speaking the word of God is dominant in the salvation history? but God chose to use human instruments who speak the word of God for His own sovereignty. (Acts 9:15)

Again, I am not sure, dividing the Holy Spirit from the word of God is the right way to interpret the Scripture? Maybe I am not good enough [simple] to understand your opinion or others.

5. Regarding If God is bigger than Scripture, then why subscribe to “bible only”?
a) The Scripture is limited to God’s intention. (Deut 29:29)
Much truth about God remains secret. We do not know how much ignorant we are in the knowledge of God. We only know what God revealed to us in his words. And much truth about spiritual realities remains in silence. For example, the Bible does not give us explicit answer about the origin of evil in the heart of Satan who was created good at first. The scripture does not speak explicitly about everything in spiritual/physical realm because God in his wisdom and mercy decided not to reveal it to us.

b) The Scripture is sufficient in the life and conduct of believers/the church. (2 Peter 1:3)
In the Scripture, God revealed everything he intended to reveal to his people. God revealed Himself in the Scripture; his nature, characters, his power and glory. The Scripture is very specific and clear about who God is; What God has done for us, what God will do for us, what God wants us to do. Whatever God decided to reveal, he revealed to his people to provide all they need to know. The Scripture contains everything unbelievers need to be saved. The Scripture contains everything believers need to be perfect; being, conduct, thinking, emotion, reasons, service to please God. (2 Tim 3:17) God revealed all matters of the life and conduct of believers/ the church in the word of God which is ministered to us by the Spirit through His word. Only God provides our sufficiency through His Word by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Continue in 2/2

This is from an article about a recent dropout from Westboro Baptist Church here (see https://medium.com/reporters-notebook/d63ecca43e35). This “church” is another example how groups that claim they only make Bible study and follow the Bible as it is written can get on the wrong track.

It’s also another good example for what Rachel was talking about in “The Scandal of the Evangelical Heart”: “When theology and doctrine become separated from emotion we end up with something dysfunctional and even monstrous.” (see http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/scandal-evangelical-heart)

Here is an interesting debate on the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJskrQq3dXM

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/tenn-woman-lives-year-strict-accordance-bible-article-1.1191042

If we really want to “live bible only”, Jacobs shows us what that would look like.

And for women, Rachel Evans did the same thing. She is one of my favorite bloggers too:

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2012/10/23/rachel-held-evans-biblical-womanhood

The bottom line is that we really should use our brains to understand the bible. I love Wesley’s “four legs” approach.

And it should be a sobering thought that when it comes to the bible, athiests often know more facts about the book than Christians, at least in the polls I’ve seen.

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Parakeet-Rethinking-Read-Bible/dp/0310331668

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Made-Impossible-Biblicism-Evangelical/dp/158743329X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360238310&sr=1-1&keywords=bible+made+impossible

The reason why I like these books is that they don’t merely criticize bible-only-ism; they also provide some positive alternatives. Both of those authors advocate a style of Bible reading that is realistic, Christ-centered and gospel-centered. And they are consistent with the Great Tradition of historic Christianity.

According to Tit 2:5, women should concentrate on “working at home”, and according to other passages they shold not preach or teach or even talk at church. Now in UBF, I often heared the women repent in their testimonies that they were “working at home” instead of going “fishing” on the campus. UBF tells women their focus should be campus mission, while the Bible tells them their focus should be parenting and work at home. Also, I often heared women preach or share testimonies in UBF. UBF consideres Sarah Barry one of their top teachers, and even made her a general director.

So, obviously UBF isn’t following the guidelines of the Bible as they are written. If the Bible would be sufficient, there would be no need to discuss. Women should immediately stop talking in the church, and concentrate on home work, right?

As another example that somebody has already posted, if the Bible would be sufficient, why should we fight for abolishing slavery? Slaves should just obey their masters and that’s all that has to be said about this issue. Particularly women slaves. “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” (Ex 21:7). Do you really think verses like this are helping us in our times and need no further commentary?

In fact, you expressed the ideas of most fundamentalist Evangelical Christians and UBFians. These ideas are like the axiom of this kind of faith. [Though, as I often explained, the top leaders of UBF do not really seem to have the Bible as their highest value. Otherwise, how could tell people to divorce and remarry when their partner left UBF, if the Bible very very clearly prohibits this. I could give many other examples. But officially, UBF leaders proclaim the ideas about the Bible you have summarized.]

I want to ask you a question that I already put in another comment, but has not been answered yet: If the Bible is sufficient, why do you think UBF members need to make Bible study with shepherds, why do they use questionnaires to study the Bible, why do they need to listen to Sunday sermons, why do they need to go to conferences? Aren’t these all *additions* to the Bible, all tools to help you understand the Bible, just like a commentary or any book about the Bible? Haven’t you formed your understanding through these tools? Isn’t any such tool error-prone in principle and could be misleading and lead to a wrong understanding of the Bible? If the Bible is sufficient and perfect, why do we even need such tools? And if you agree we need such tools, how do you discern which tools are good and which tools are not? Why do many UBFers, for example, think that the lectures of Samuel Lee are far superior to any Bible commentary, and prefer to shape their understanding of the Bible just from the Bible + Samuel Lee lectures?

When you say “Scripture alone is above all human or angel authority”, what does this mean for your practical life? For instance, if a UBF leader would tell you to visit a UBF conference instead of visiting the marriage of your parents who urgently asked for your help, what would you do? Both things – attending the Bible conference and obeying your parents – look to be Biblical. In the end, how does the Bible help you here? In practice, I found most UBFers simply follow their human authority – the UBF leader, because the Bible has no passage that clearly says “in case of a conflict between the fifth commandment and a UBF conference, the conference takes precedence.”

Another question is: If your view is correct, why didn’t Jesus bother more about the Bible? Why didn’t he permanently preach that we should follow the Bible and the Bible only? Why is “follow/read the Bible” not part of the 10 commandments or the highest commands, why are the words “Bible” and “Bible study” not found in the Bible at all (just the word “scripture” which refers to the OT only). Why didn’t Jesus care so little that his words and NT doctrine is written down in an orderly manner? Why had the church to struggle so much in building a canon from various contradictory letters and gospels 4 centuries later? Remember that there have been many letters and even gospels which were considered to be God’s word and “Bible book candidates”, and even today we have several apocrypha which can only be found in some Bibles. For instance, on which base do you consider the book of Tobit part of the Bible? Don’t you follow a human authority here (either the Catholic or Protestant church) when you say it’s part of the Bible or not?

I hope this can give you some food for thought, and I’d really like to read your answer to my first question.

“Honesty, I was greatly disturbed by your statement: the bible is not sufficient and your implications; others books are absolutely necessary in the life of believers.”

> I’m glad to hear your honest reaction. I’m not so sure I was making those exact statements, so I’ll clarify. Here are my questions I asked above, and the answers I would give:

> Is the bible sufficient for every facet of life? I say no. The word “sufficient” means to be “enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end”. I would tend to agree that the bible could be sufficient for people to develop faith in God and Jesus and God’s work. But even in matters of faith I would say we need more than the bible. We need each other, mainly, and each others’ thoughts. The bible in fact teaches us we need a community of people to enrich our faith.

> What role do traditions, organizations and other inspirations play in the life of a Christian? Traditions that are flexible give structure and some measure of protection of doctrine. Other inspirations from Muslims, etc. can be helpful to expand our mind and learn how to be better human beings on this earth, and can help us to learn how to love our fellow man and woman who are different from us.

> Who is it who guides us into all truth? The Holy Spirit. I am a Spirit-first, bible-second person.

“Now, the Scripture is not a book of sociology [slavery] or music [Harps] or fruits [fig] or science or medicine. [although I believe Scripture is not wrong sociologically, musically, scientifically, medically, but our understanding of the Scripture or interpretation or applications could be wrong]

> Fair enough.

“Essenially, the Bible is a book of God; a book of Jesus.The Bible is a revelation of God: his characters, his authority, his laws, his ways and his glory. The Bible is the book of God’s salvation plan through the sacrifice of Jesus.The Bible is a gift from God for us; so that we can understand/know Him in human language.”

> I would agree with this. The bible is quite amazing when we seek out the narratives about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.

“[I believe God is bigger than the Scripture but God is not against the Scripture]”

> Fair enough. This supports my thesis that we need to go beyond “bible alone” thinking. If God is bigger than Scripture, then why subscribe to “bible only”?

“We have more than enough evidences to proclaim the sufficiency of the Scripture.”

> Your argument convinces me that the bible speaks about a wide array of topics. But you’ve not demonstrated sufficiency in any way. Are you saying our dynamic human existance can be marginalized to 14 or 15 points? You’ve failed to convince me of “bible only” thinking by quoting verses from the bible.

“Is it fair to say that the word of God is complete, perfect and comprehensive [Psa 19:7]”

> Good point. Psalm 19:7 reads: “The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.” Perfect? yes. Trustworthy? yes. Completely addressing every human situation for all generations? no.

“And I would also like to say; the Word of God has only authority over us.”

> This is confusing to me. The bible exhorts us in many places to respect many kinds of authority. Why do you say the word of God is the only authority over us?

“Everything else including spiritual books/commentaries even our personal convictions should be examined by the Scripture, not vice versa.”

> Fair enough. So I would say the lens through which we “see” scripture and the lens through which we “act out” scripture is of utmost importance.

“In general, books can be very helpful, extremely insightful, but do not have any authority over us. But at the same time, many books can be harmful, deceptive in real life; physically spiritually as well.”

> One sign of intelligence is to entertain a thought wihtout agreeing with it. An intelligent person can study all kinds of ideas and not commit to them. I believe the essense of people’s writings do leave an impression, but that impression is not so dangerous. And I would say we need to read deeply and broadly. Nearly all great men and women have done so.

“Regular books are just references, nothing more, nothing less. We are not commanded to obey them. But scripture is God’s commands and we are commanded by God to obey them; we are accountable to God for all His commands.”

> Please explain more how we are to obey all His commands? How would you obey Leviticus 21, for example? Would you actually stone your disobedient children to death?

“And because we are fallen, we have tendency to wrongly divide the word of God so frequently. And because Satan is a liar, we might be deceived by/through him so easily without discernment. therefore, all books should be judged by the Scripture [not our biased doctrines; but the pure teaching of the Scripture] not vice versa.

> What does “divide the word of God” mean?

“In order to know the truth, I think we should be extremely humble before God because we are not perfect, but sinful.”

> Fair enough.

“We should research the word of God thoroughly and ask God for revelation; wisdom for the truth by the Holy Spirit. We should research the church history thoroughly and ask God for discernment for the truth.

> So you are saying we shouldn’t rely on the “bible alone”, but also on our research and on church history? I would agree.

“[challenge: how many laypersons personally can do research like these; not many; therefore people like me heavely rely on other people’s sermons or books, or commentaries, but still each person is responsible for their understanding of the Scripture.]”

> So you are saying we shouldn’t rely on the “bible alone”, but on other people’s sermons or books or commentaries? I agree.

> Each person is responsible for their understanding of the Scripture? I don’t agree with this. Will God give us a doctrine quiz on Judgement Day? No. What will God ask us?

“Are there any books in the world, completely perfect, without flaw or mistake? No. Are there any books in the world, 100% trustworthy, pure, clean, righteous? No.
I believe only original Scripture [not copies] is perfect, without flaw or mistake. The bible we have; the translation of the copy scripture is very close to the original scripture; very reliable and trustworthy.”

> Well you can hold onto your belief if you want. I’m not convinced. The bible is not a magical book.

“Scripture alone is above all human or angel authority, Scripture alone is above us, above all other creeds, or doctrines or books, written even by great men and women of God throughout the human history because its authority is from God.This is my prayer; we may have full understanding of the sufficiency of the Scripture in lives of believers.”

> So even though you admit that “bible alone” is not sufficient several times above, you seem to be elevating the bible to idol status. That is probably how the Jews felt when Jesus came along and added to their Scripture, which was just the Torah. How blasphemous Jesus and the Apostles must have seemed to the church leaders! They were rejecting “Torah alone”! They were following new revelation!

> I would really and sincerely like to read your thoughts on my questions above. I don’t claim to know everything, I just claim to be following Christ and exploring His magnificent gospel.

I’m impressed at the great effort and thought that you put in to write such a lengthy comment. A few years ago, I would have agreed with what you wrote. You make a strong case that Scripture occupies a special place in the life of the Christian community. I agree with that sentiment.

However, “sufficient” is a very strong word. It means that, at the end of the day, we don’t really need anything except the Bible to know truth, to discern right from wrong, to understand how we are supposed to live our lives, and so on. But that is simply not true.

For example, we need the Holy Spirit. The Spirit may sometimes lead us in a different direction from what we think the Bible is clearly teaching. There are good examples of this in the Bible itself. A while back, I wrote a series of articles about this. If you have time, please take a look at these and tell us what you think.

http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/10/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-1/

http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/

http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/16/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-3/

The point of these articles is that the active leading of the Holy Spirit in the church may be needed to correct widespread misunderstandings about how Scripture is supposed to be followed. If we acknowledge that we need this active leading of the Spirit, then we have already admitted that the Bible alone is not sufficient.

Throughout history, most Christians have understood that, although Scripture is extremely important, they couldn’t approach it in a vacuum; they realized that we all read and understand Scripture in the presence of many other influences. John Wesley believed in the primacy of Scripture, but he also said that we form our theology using reason, tradition and experience. These four — Scripture, reason, tradition, and experience — became known as “the Wesleyan quadrilateral.”

The idea of putting aside reason, tradition and experience and forming your faith on a plain-sense reading of Scripture alone is a relatively new development. It began with some ideas of Sir Francis Bacon and was popularized in the 19th and 20th centuries through the rise of American fundamentalism. (The Christian historian Mark Noll has written extensively about this. For example, in his well known book The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.) Many of the ideas that you mention in your comment grow out of that American fundamentalist tradition. There are good things about that tradition. But, like every tradition, it deserves to be challenged and critiqued. Other Christians in other times and places have thought about Scripture very differently.

Honesty, I was greatly disturbed by your statement: the bible is not sufficient and your implications; others books are absolutely necessary in the life of believers.

I respectfully disagree with it. [please correct me if I am wrong. I would greatly appreciate if you use Scripture with biblical interpretation to support your logics]

So I will share my opinion about the first question: Is the bible sufficient for every facet of life?
My quick answer is this: I believe the word of God is sufficient for every aspect of life.

Although I am doing my best to be biblical, it is very possible my opinion might be wrong; since I am sinful, far from the perfection.

Now, the Scripture is not a book of sociology [slavery] or music [Harps] or fruits [fig] or science or medicine. [although I believe Scripture is not wrong sociologically, musically, scientifically, medically, but our understanding of the Scripture or interpretation or applications could be wrong]

Essenially, the Bible is a book of God; a book of Jesus.
The Bible is a revelation of God: his characters, his authority, his laws, his ways and his glory.
The Bible is the book of God’s salvation plan through the sacrifice of Jesus.
The Bible is a gift from God for us; so that we can understand/know Him in human language.
[I believe God is bigger than the Scripture but God is not against the Scripture]

We have more than enough evidences to proclaim the sufficiency of the Scripture.
1.We are saved [born again] by the word of God [1Peter 1:23]
2.We received the faith by hearing the word of God. [Rom 10:17]
3.We are sanctified by the word of God. [ Jn 17:17]
4.We are growing spiritually by the word of God. [1Peter 2:2]
5.We know the truth by the word of God. [Jn 8:31,32]
6.We will be free from the bondage of sin by the word of God [Jn 8:32]

The word of God teaches us
7. about the relationship with God/people. [love relationship]
8. about how to live at home, in the work place, in the society and in the church.
9. what to do as husband/wife [marriage] or children/parents [parenting] or church members/church leaders or slaves or masters. [present terms; employee or employer]
10. about life, death, blessing, curse, healing, disease, destruction, restoration, salvation, sancification, glorification, hope, kingdom of God.
11. About the beginning and the end of everything, everything in between in personal life; nation; the world.

Since the grace/blessing/love/wisdom of God, atonement of Jesus are revealed in the Scripture,
Is it fair to say that according to the Scripture,
12. The grace of God upon us is sufficient [2 Cor 12:9] more than sufficient. [Psalm 23:5]
13. The blessing of God upon believers is more than sufficient [Eph 1:3]
14. The wisdom, knowledge of God [in Jesus] is more than sufficient for us [Prov 1:7, Col 2:3]
15. The love of God for sinners like us is more than sufficient [Rom 5:8]
16. The blood of Jesus for atonement for sinners like us is more than sufficient [Heb 9:14]

No matter what situations you might be in [even if extremely painful], the grace of God/power of God, love of God, wisdom of God, forgiveness of God is sufficient for us.

Since the word of God is written by God [2Tim 3:16] who is perfect [Mat 5:48]
Since the word of God is written about Jesus [Jn 5:39] who is perfect [heb 9:14]
Is it fair to say that the word of God is complete, perfect and comprehensive [Psa 19:7]

In this sense, I believe the word of God is sufficient for every aspect of believers’ life.

And I would also like to say; the Word of God has only authority over us.
Everything else including spiritual books/commentaries even our personal convictions should be examined by the Scripture, not vice versa.

In general, books can be very helpful, extremely insightful, but do not have any authority over us.
But at the same time, many books can be harmful, deceptive in real life; physically spiritually as well.

Regular books are just references, nothing more, nothing less. We are not commanded to obey them.
But scripture is God’s commands and we are commanded by God to obey them; we are accountable to God for all His commands.

And because we are fallen, we have tendency to wrongly divide the word of God so frequently. And because Satan is a liar, we might be deceived by/through him so easily without discernment.

therefore, all books should be judged by the Scripture [not our biased doctrines; but the pure teaching of the Scripture] not vice versa.

In order to know the truth, I think we should be extremely humble before God because we are not perfect, but sinful.
We should research the word of God thoroughly and ask God for revelation; wisdom for the truth by the Holy Spirit.
We should research the church history thoroughly and ask God for discernment for the truth.

[ challenge: how many laypersons personally can do research like these; not many; therefore people like me heavely rely on other people’s sermons or books, or commentaries, but still each person is responsible for their understanding of the Scripture.]

Are there any books in the world, completely perfect, without flaw or mistake? No.
Are there any books in the world, 100% trustworthy, pure, clean, righteous? No.

I believe only original Scripture [not copies] is perfect, without flaw or mistake. The bible we have; the translation of the copy scripture is very close to the original scripture; very reliable and trustworthy.

Scripture alone is above all human or angel authority, Scripture alone is above us, above all other creeds, or doctrines or books, written even by great men and women of God throughout the human history because its authority is from God.

This is my prayer; we may have full understanding of the sufficiency of the Scripture in lives of believers.

This is partly why I am so very disgusted with the UBF new year’s lectures from Chicago and Toledo. There is no need for an elite “marines of God’s people” remnant. There is no need to view those who remain in your tiny ministry as the “one’s who held onto Jesus’ teaching”. There is no need for your self-given identity as “lowly misfits and weirdos” whom God will bless especially. (Note: The word “weirdos” is not my word; That is the word used in the Toledo new year’s lecture to describe those who remain loyal to UBF there.)

Instead of seeing yourself with pity and flattery, and supposing that God is so pleased with your shepherds as the “holy remnant” who “obeys God’s teaching”, I pray that you UBF people will open your eyes and embrace the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God (Romans 11:33-36). God is doing so much reconciliation work without you! I pray that you may be part of such work one day.

We need to read the rest of Romans, and understand Hosea, to realize that God loves both Jacob and Esau: Romans 9:25-26 “25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.'”

God made it clear that Jacob was “his people” and Esau was not. But what would God do through the work on the cross? Through Jesus, the people who are not “his people” will become God’s people. Through Jesus the door to all mankind is open, which includes the possibility for men, women, young, old, GLB or T, black, white, yellow– all to equally love and serve God as “his people”.

You mention a good point: “Can we say that much of scripture is narrative, and as a result, and so often the narrator tells the story without injecting whether or not what a person did was really what God was pleased with?”

I am learning to see Scripture as a narrative of life these days. It is amazing to begin to see the redemptive narrative woven throughout the violence, sin and stupidity of mankind. I thin we need to remember when we “go back to the bible” we are not going back to an instruction book that dictates how to act in every situation. The bible is a collection of narratives.

This is helping me immensely in my own life too. I am starting to see my life as a journey– a journey together with humanity and with God. It is not important for me any longer to “arrive” at some supposed place of promise, but to be content with Jesus and the people around me as we journey together.

I think your approach to Scripture is not overly simplistic. I see elegant simplicity in your words, not simple-minded shallowness. I think the bible really does come down to the themes of grace, love, redemption and peace, among others. In this way, I think you view the bible in a healthy way– as a light to reveal the journey’s of men and women in the past instead of as a binding example that we must imitate exactly.

So I’m all for a literal reading of the text. But I’m very much against a literal imitation of the text. We ought to be thinking, praying and discussing the text and what to do with it instead of just quickly running off to obey with a partial understanding.

Regardless of the book, I am rather surprised to hear that a UBF person is reading and quoting such a book. Historically, such books would have been judged or dismissed by UBF people. So I am glad to see this connection with the outside world.

About five years ago or so, I stopped using the UBF question sheets (except when required) and began reading the UBF lectures less and less. It was one of the most liberating things I’ve done.

Maybe it was not the problem of the size of your rear end,(haha) but the other wall of tradition could be unstable with screw loose when we insist our old tradition.

We have many UBF tradition and culture that has been built up for the last 50 years. Many of them are good and some of them are not so good depend on who you talk to. In UBF We have narrow definition of mission fishing, one to one, feeding sheep. But mission is defined more broadly by the late Missiologist, David Bosch, who said in his book, “Transforming mission” that “Mission is not merely evangelism (more than evangelism). Mission is the church sent into the world, to love, to serve, to preach, to teach, to heal, to liberate”. This means our mission in broad sense is to love our neighbor as ourselves wherever we are, at home, in the church and in our working place.

McKnight again said,”We need to go back to the Bible so we can move forward through the Church and speak God’s word in our days in our ways. We need to go back without getting stuck (the return problem), and we need to move forward without fossilizing our ideas. (traditionalism)”

Whatever we do, we should do it as an expression of loving God and loving others, freely, consistently and persistently which will be creating a new tradition.

I’m glad that you liked the book Blue Parakeet.That book really helped me understand how people listen to the Bible in the context of their communities and traditions, and how tradition can help or hinder understanding.

In your water-slide analogy, you said, “the Bible is one wall, our teachers and our traditions the other wall.” One of the problems that I continually encounter in dealing with ubf leaders is this unstated assumption: The tradition that I, Joe Schafer, am supposed to uphold and follow is the tradition that originated in Korean ubf 50 years ago. I have learned certain things from that tradition. But the well of ubf tradition was not deep enough or rich enough to sustain my spiritual health and growth for more than a few years. I desperately needed to learn from other traditions, especially the Great Tradition, and when I did, I met God in very real ways. But when I began to talk about the things I had learned from the Great Tradition and put them into practice, many people in ubf assumed that I had become proud and rebellious. (I was already proud and rebellious; the Great Tradition didn’t teach me that!) The water-slide analogy is useful, as long as people realize that the wall of teachers and traditions is not ubf teachers and traditions, but all the great teachers who stand within Great Tradition, beginning with Jesus and the apostles and the church fathers. Confining myself to ubf teachers and traditions was like trying to fit my large, adult-sized rear end into a narrow slide that was designed for a small child. My butt got stuck, and I couldn’t move!

When we read the Bible we should have awesome respect to the word of God and listen very carefully and be ready to obey. Listening to the Bible is like having the most powerful person in the world sit down with us for coffee as a friend and chat with us. We need to him very carefully with 100% full attention.

Without this awesome respect to the word of God, although we like to think we are becoming more like Jesus through Bible reading and study, the reverse is probably more the case: we try to make Jesus like ourselves! God did not give the Bible so we could master him or it; God gave the Bible so we could live it, so we could be mastered by it. The moment we think we’ve mastered it, we have failed to be readers of the Bible.

God speaks to us for a reason—I call this “missional” listening. In brief, God tells his story so we can enter into a relationship with him, listen to him, and live out his Word in our day and in our way.

God designs all biblical study to be a “useful” process that leads us to the Bible in such a way that it creates a person who loves God and loves others. Anything less fails to achieve why God speaks to us in the Bible.

A Proper reading of the Bible is attended by the Spirit, who will transform us, guide us, and give us discernment to know how to live in our world. The gospel is like the water slide,(like the curved water slide in the water park) the Bible is one wall, our teachers and our tradition the other wall, and the water is the Holy Spirit.

I like the last paragraph he mentioned. Bible, traditions are two walls of water slide. But without Holy Spirit (water) a good nice sliding will not happen.

None of this may be wrong or bad, except that it does not cause us to think about the God who shepherded Jacob all his life.

Perhaps, the “best” way to study the narrative of Jacob is to consider the God of grace, who “overlooked” all of his horribly selfish blatent flaws, because grace always comes to those like Jacob who were not seeking it, not aware of it, delaying responding to it, and not appreciating it even after receiving it.

It’s good to read the Bible narratives, well, as narratives. Our tendency to chop up the books of the Bible into short passages and then study those passages individually and then look for a moral/teaching lesson/practical application in each passage often does violence to the integrity and beauty of the whole story.

The story of Jacob is full of karma. Jacob deceives his brother Esau, then in turn he gets deceived by Laban. I don’t think the author is trying to paint Jacob’s lying as something to be emulated.

With Jacob deceiving Esau, I “justified” the ends justifying the means, because in my mind Jacob was “better” than Esau (which is not true, because both deserved squat from God). Since Jacob was chosen/loved, but not Esau, I “approved” of what Jacob did, and then justified my own attempts to do what I thought was right and good for others, even if it offended and infuriated others. But that’s just me.

My approach to scripture has been to take it as literally as possible, but not to go beyond the themes of scripture, the primary theme being redemption of sinners to a holy God by grace through the work of Jesus Christ. When I encounter a difficult passage, I try to interpret it with a less difficult passage. In all things, my effort is not to be correct, but to have a right relationship with God and with people. Perhaps a little simplistic? Oh well, I guess I’m not as nuanced, deep-thinking, or scholarly as some of our friends on here!

I’m told that if some leader finds out that their members reads UBFriends, watch out! If this is not legalistic, I’m not sure what is.

It is intriguing to me that you say UBF inclines toward legalism. I’ve found UBF to be one of the most liberal groups out there. It’s an odd mix perhaps. The inclination is to be legalistic toward the heritage, and extremely liberal in all other areas. I’ve found that as long as you are loyal to the heritage and don’t create websites to question such heritage, you are golden.

The 2 ditches are liberalism and legalism. UBF and most traditional conservative evangelical churches incline toward legalism, while many emergent post-modern churches incline toward liberalism. Sorry for my love of generalizations!

I’m continually amazed at some things that seem SO obvious to me now, but weren’t in the past. I was truly blinded by my own pride and self-righteousness.

I appreciate your mention of drawing on our rich Christian history. That seems so obvious to me now, but sadly it is not obvious to some. In fact, I am rather embarrassed now that I am interacting with Christians and Christian pastors– how proudly I used to disparage them! How arrogant I was to think myself better than Billy Graham!

I remember one bible study where the discussion came up: Should we be biblical or Christian? We all readily concluded “Be biblical! Being Christian is secondary and not so important.”

Yeah, Brian, the way I taught the Bible I would label as “anthropocentric.” As you said, the list points to what man must do, rather than to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the good news.

Personally, though this too can be skewed to some doctrinal narrowness or legalistic dogmatism, our Bible studies should be Christo-centric or Christo-telic. Jesus himself says so (Jn 5:39, 46; Lk 24:27, 44).

What I see in you examples listed here is a much more troubling issue: some important Christian concepts are missing. In some cases, even if we knew all there is to know about the context of the passage, we still wouldn’t correct the problem.

For example, you mentioned my #1 bleeding point teaching: “Abraham offered Isaac, you offer your Isaac to God.” I was taught this, and I believed it, hook, line and sinker. But what is missing?

Here are some things I noticed that are missing:

1. The teaching above does not account for all the facts, and singles out only part of the narrative. The end of the narrative is missing from that teaching (Genesis 22:10-12). God said, “Do not lay a hand on the boy.” So in fact, Abraham did not complete the sacrifice.

2. The teaching above (and all on your list) does not account for listening to God’s voice. In all cases above, your teachings immediately apply some teaching directly to “you” and “your life”. The steps of praying, waiting on God and discernment of what God would have you do are all missing. Christians don’t typically have such a quick response to the bible. Christians generally strive to listen to the voice of God guiding us into all truth.

3. All of the teachings on your list are also missing Jesus. Our first response to the bible, I contend, should be to discover what the passage has to say about Jesus. These redemptive narratives are now my primary focus anytime I read or study the bible. Before I think about myself or my life, I find it so crucial to first think about Jesus (who Jesus is, what Jesus did, what Jesus will do, why Jesus said something, etc)

You began with the question, “Is the Bible sufficient for every facet of life?” The answer, of course, is “No.” The Bible is not even sufficient for our theology. The Bible itself shows that it is not. An article about that very point can be found here:

Is the Bible Really Enough for Christian Theology? No (and the Bible Says So)

Because you asked six specific questions, I will try to answer them.

A1. How could we avoid the pitfalls of those who have gone before us?

Spend some time actually learning about the history of Christian thought, especially the early church fathers, who thought deeply about these things. Don’t be afraid to put down your Bible for a while and take the time to read what other Christians have said and are now saying about how to approach Scripture. Although you will then be spending less time actually reading Scripture, that time will be much more fruitful.

(Warning: For the rest of these questions, I will use a rhetorical device known as irony.)

A2. Should we Christians re-enable the owning of slaves?

Yes, it’s very biblical. And so is polygamy.

B1. What role does the Holy Spirit have as our guide into all truth?

The Holy Spirit speaks only through the text of Scripture, never through worldly books or live human beings or the internet or other kinds of complicated human thinkings. We need to put aside all those other things and go back to the Bible only.

B2. How do we obey the commands we discover in the Bible?

With absolute faith and no-compromise spirit.

C1. What, if anything, is wrong with my fig tree teachings?

I don’t know. I don’t have time for that.

C2. If we will all end up with flawed doctrines, how might we live now?

With absolute faith and no-compromise spirit.

* Cain was jealous, don’t be jealous.
* Noah built an ark of salvation, you build your own “ark of salvation.”
* Ham disrespected God’s servant Noah, you respect “God’s servant.”
* Abram left country, people, household, you leave your old life.
* Abraham offered Isaac, you offer your Isaac to God.
* Lot was worldly, don’t be like Lot.
* Rebekah taught Jacob to get God’s blessing by any means, which inadvertently taught that “the ends justified the means.”
* Maybe the best one: Isaac married Rebekah by faith, you marry by faith.

This list can just go on and on.

Though these statements may teach about some biblical principle, yet such Bible studies are really not helpful in many ways. It is also not hermeneutically nor exegetically sound, and it certainly WAS NOT and WAS NEVER the intent of the author.

One cute quote I memorized is “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.”