Comments on: The State of Christianity in Korea http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: LukeL http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3465 Fri, 18 May 2012 04:08:04 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3465 When one address about Gospel or Christian spirituality, it must be addressed in terms of human nature or God’s characters.
One thing we know is that all human being, no matter how good they have become, as time went on, as long as we live in the world under the power of sin, will degrade to spiritual malaise unless he or she is renewed by by the power of the cross in ongoing bases.
This is truth in each individual as well as a group or a nation. This has happened in Europe and is happening in US. Korea is no exception. Do we have to bring down our spirit by these?
I like to rejoice in what God is doing in many other parts of the world. Particularly I am very happy to see what God is doing in China. Jesus said the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit [Matt 22:43]. Once he did, and he will do again any time. We are not exempt from it.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3464 Fri, 06 Apr 2012 14:14:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3464 Now is the time to also analyze the “state of Christianity in UBF”. Historically, Easter is the time of reform in UBF, and unfortunately, also the time of excommunication and severe division. Analyzing the reform movements led by Koreans in 1976, 1989 and 2000, as well as the ongoing 2011 independence movement, will be the subject of my 2012 Easter reflections. I think we all should have a sober assessment of facing the facts about UBF, without the “us vs them” mentality.

]]> By: mj http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3463 Thu, 29 Mar 2012 05:46:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3463 I agree that this is not just a Korean thing. There are many white Americans in foreign countries who do not speak a word of the language and only eat American food and hang around American people. I find it inconsistent that they live abroad when they would be much more at home in their own country. It’s as if they brought America here.
Even though I disagree with this life style,  they have a particular ministry they are serving. Their ministry is for expats. But I like Paul’s attitude in 1 Cor 9:19-21:
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3462 Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:35:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3462 Thanks, James. I agree that being authentic and relevant are prerequisites to a revival. But the problem with every 2nd generation of Christians, is that the 1st generation often fails to see that they are becoming increasingly irrelevant and obsolete because of outmoded ways of contextualizing and presenting the gospel.
 
Yes, it did work for them 20 to 40 years ago. But it will not work today, or will work far less effectively as we are experiencing today. The gospel does not change. But the culture and society changes. Until we humble ourselves and truly listen to the next generation, we will lose them. If we think that the 2nd generation should just submit to the 1st generation, we will also eventually loose them.
 
This is true not just for culturally Korean churches like UBF, but for every church in every culture, every nationality, and every generation.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3461 Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:25:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3461 Thanks, Vitaly, for you expression of support. I’ve often said that God is always doing His own thing (Ps 115:3; Ps 135:6; Jn 3:8), and all I am doing is trying to jump on God’s bandwagon (Phil 2:12), and often falling off! Pray for me to keep getting back on again.
 
Unfortunately, UBF being Korea-centered is to be expected. John Piper says that we are all racist. I agree. But as sinners we easily see other nationalities as racist, not ourselves. I have heard both a missionary and an American both accuse the other of being racist, without themselves seeing how racist they each are. Thus, we all need Jesus!

]]> By: James http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3460 Thu, 22 Mar 2012 01:34:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3460 I think Mr. Um is onto something here. Times definitely are a-changing. I’m glad a lot of the older Christians are beginning to realize this.
I think for a Christian movement to flourish, telling others about the Bible has to come from a real desire to tell others. If I am not motivated to tell people something cool and exciting, I wouldn’t right? So what makes this any different?
Right now, the liberty movement fronted by GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul is thriving. His message is so relevant to today’s youth because the youth value independence, freedom to make individual choices, consistency, just to name a few. Even though he’s 76 years old, he is the most popular GOP candidate among the youth. I think this just highlights how important the message is. Ron Paul is an old man who even stumbles when he talks, but it’s his message that really moves people. Personally I have never supported a politician as much as I have Ron Paul even though I’m not even an American. 
Take a look at the enthusiasm of college students at MSU from this short YouTube clip. They are welcoming Ron Paul:

 
I think for a major revival to occur, UBF or any Christian organization or church need to become more relevant to the average person. For example, talking about something in Revelations that is occurring today. Perhaps that Israel will be a country again (already happened), before the second coming, that you will not be able to distinguish men and women in appearance (just look at men’s fashion today), there will be a singular global government (adoption of the euro in EU countries is just a start in more globalization).
I think there are plenty of other ways Christians can share their faith. But in reality the majority of Christians just go to church on Sunday and don’t even think about their faith during the week. In other words, it’s not relevant to their lives.
So to sum this up, I think authenticity and relevancy are prerequisites to a major Christian revival. In Seoul, and everywhere.
 
 
 

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3459 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:36:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3459 About approach to culture and church health. There are 11 new appointed UBF chapter directors in the USA (2011) and only 2 of them are not koreans. It would be a nice stat data for chapters in Korea I suppose, but not in the USA. UBF is trying hard to keep its position as a “number one missionary sending korean church” with the motto “Korea will send more missionaries than America”. But are such things biblical and Christ-centered and healthy? UBF remains mostly just a korean church with indigenous insertions. Culturally UBF is Korea-centered worldwide. And UBF leaders say that other korean churches learn many thing from UBF, such as 1:1  (as the church growth secret – 0.3%) and sending as missionaries 1/3 of church members. (Are these things biblical and God approved?). UBF is surely declining along with others, not growing nor awaiting a revival. (BTW, Dr Ben I liked your article about Philippines UBF and I believe there is a revival there. I believe that God will bless your chapter and Penn State chapter and the like, though I think that UBF-name is not very helpful for revival and church growth) 

]]> By: David Bychkov http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3458 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:55:58 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3458 Sorry. I meant traditional standarts of faith like Westminster Confession Of Faith, Heidelberg Catechism.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3457 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:38:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3457 Forgive my ignorance, David, but what does “unconfessional Christianity” mean? After all, we do write testimonies. Isn’t that “confessional”?

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3456 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:36:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3456 Yes, Brian, I have also heard of UBF kids who go to church to make their parents happy, or not to hurt them, even though they “switch off” in church.

]]> By: David Bychkov http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3455 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:28:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3455 Thanks for sharing, Ben. I will add one point which I’ve heard quite a few times from my professors and fellow students in Seminary. Korean churhers tends toward unconfessional christianity. really large part of Koran churches has Reformed roots but many of them hardly really keeping Reformed theology, confesstional docs etc. So there some amount of mess in theology. Not sure if anyone would agree that this is a problem. B/c this question has different sides, and surely it is just generalization. 

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2012/03/19/is-ubf-in-decline-along-with-the-church-in-seoul/#comment-3454 Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:35:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=4482#comment-3454 These are necessary questions and an appropriate analysis, Ben. I won’t answer the questions right now (I think most of our readers know my answers :)

But I want to stress one big issue: there is a perceived Christianity among the UBF “2nd gens”. In other words, many UBF parents view their children as being Christian because their children conform to certain standards and don’t question their parent’s faith. However, those children, many of whom are now adults, are struggling with understanding the gospel of Jesus. For example, one 2nd gen (who will remain anonymous) confessed to me this year that he is not only not a Christian, but he is an atheist. I think this is not just an isolated situation. 

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