Yeah we should meet up one of these days it’s been a while since Sharon and I visited. Sorry, my other glaring sin (or only son symptom) is lack of maintaining relationships. I’d love to chat, I still find myself musing on our last conversation. Maybe we can have you guys over this time. I’ll shoot you an email. 

I think you may be right about the need for transparency and discussion. Perhaps, one thing we lack is a common practice in other churches of becoming a member, reading and agreeing to the doctrine of the church clearly stated and then swearing to abide by it. I do have to say I never had a point where I really knew I went from being a “sheep” to being a member and I actually haven’t the faintest clue how anything is decided, or the by-laws governing it. Though if I asked P. Ron, I think he’d direct me to it without a moments hesitation…perhaps it’s my lack of initiative, I’ve never really considered the matter. Good points. 

Much has already been said. i am very happy about the fact that this site exists and i have certainly learned a lot through reading, discussing and writing for ubfriends.

As mentioned by several others beforehand, i would absolutely welcome any contribution dealing with theological issues and Christian themes, which are for interest for any Christian. In one way or the other, everything that has something to do with Christian theology, will at least indirectly also have something to do with UBF because UBF seeks to be a gospel-preaching, mission-driven church. I think all of our discussions about church should be theology-driven and not driven by the urge of uttering criticism.

In any case, i am very thankful for the writers and every contributor who are active on this site. For the new year, I hope that the discussion can be beneficial, that friendships can be made and fostered through this website and that whenever people come and read, they will leave this site with a word of encouragement and something to think about.

Gathered at this great Assembly, 850 of us in all, animated and uplifted by a fresh hearing of God’s word, by joyful music and by songs of praise, we have been gripped by the Assembly’s theme ‘Transformed, not Conformed’.

We confess that too often we have been conformed to this world;
– by our failure to listen to God;
– by our lack of appetite for God;
– by our failure to recognise and use the power of prayer;
– by casually assuming God’s presence with us;
– by our failure to listen to one another;
– by being bound to the traditions of the past;
– by being more committed to Presbyterianism than to Christ;
– by being content with superficial fellowship;
– by our preoccupation with money and possessions;
– by our failure to enable all our members to exercise their personal ministries;
– by ministering to ourselves rather than to others;
– by our lack of concern for the divisions within the Church, the Body of Christ;
– by not challenging sectarianism;
– by being afraid to take risks for our faith.

In spite of all this, we thankfully acknowledge God’s mercy in calling us, unworthy as we are, to be His people, chosen and redeemed in Christ. It is our vision that through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will be transformed, so that we may

– be hungry for God – and His truth and righteousness;
– be open and willing to listen to His word;
– be enriched in worship as we celebrate God’s awesome and joyful presence amongst us;
– be ready to make each congregation a living example of the family of God;
– be renewed in our personal and local church life so that members contribute to the total ministry;
– be willing to adopt a simple lifestyle, no longer preoccupied with money and possessions;
– be glad to share our time, talents and money for the work of God;
– be committed to mission, not only in our own country, but in all the world;
– be responsive to the needs of the world Christ came to save;
– be present as Christ’s love, Christ’s justice, and Christ’s hope in the world’s darkness and decay;
– be concerned to proclaim with new confidence and joy the saving name of Jesus, both by word and action;
– be gifted to present Christ attractively and to apply the Word relevantly;
– be able to affirm our oneness with all who sincerely love the Lord Jesus.

God make us a joyful and expectant Church, confident in Him who has made us His people, and given us a heavenly destiny.

God make us no longer a Church of yesterday, but a Church of today and tomorrow.

God make us mindful of Christ’s living presence in our midst, leading us where He wants us to go, no longer conformed to this world, its mind-set and lifestyle, but transformed by the Spirit’s renewing power.

To God be glory in the Church, now and ever.

http://www.presbyterianireland.org/about/coleraine.html  

Thanks for sharing Vitaly, and welcome to UBFriends. I am very sorry to hear what happened to you in your chapter. You shared honestly, not as a criticizer, nor are your comments “UBF bashing,” which some might say it is.

As a shepherd, I too have had to learn the meaning of Psalm 49:7-8 “7 No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him–  8 the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough–  9 that he should live on forever and not see decay.”  My sacrifice for others just is not enough to motivate them to give their lives to Jesus. I may be able to help them for a time, but in the end I must give them up to the Lord, trusting and knowing that it is only the sacrifice of Jesus that transforms and motivates and changes.

Also your points are valid. Your question is good too: How do you monitor all the Bible teachers? I think that’s why it is helpful for members of a church to be included in major decisions, to develop a constitution together, to know what your churches by-laws are and especially to be able to obtain and read ALL of your church’s books and official teaching material. It is very important to know and understand what your church’s official doctrine is.

Ultimately, both of these issues require faith in our One Good Shepherd, Jesus and submission to the Holy Spirit. Grace is sufficient, I believe.

You bring up a good point about public debate. 1 Ti 5:20 came to mind immediately. Perhaps it is better to discuss things in public rather than in secret, so long as it doesn’t become complaining or gossip. I guess as a recovering complaining addict I sometimes get too sensitive on this.

I completely agree with you, and have agreed about this, that the demonizing of former UBF members is totally wrong. Though to some degree I understand it. I had a Bible student who I poured many years of love into who didn’t want to study with me anymore and I found it hearbreaking, I mean really heartbreaking. I found myself flopping between two extremes of harshly blaming myself or blaming this person. It may be how much we invest into people that makes us have such strong reactions but it’s still wrong. Oh Lord teach me to accept what you do in my life with open arms.  

However, I still stand behind the comment that a problem with one chapter is not a problem with the whole church. For example in one country, a missionary came without anyone knowing and began his own ministry apart from the already thriving ministry there after he was found (a year later!), he began to be very disruptive. We can easily say, “that is the problem with UBF, this is always what is happening” but it was found that this person is actually a well known troublemaker. So the General Director will take care of it. The problem was one person, not the ministry as a whole. How many more times is it a bad egg and not really UBF. I think maybe the problem is one of accountability. This is one thing I’ve felt for many years. How do you monitor what hundreds of Bible teachers are teaching and doing with Bible students and make sure that it conforms to the Bible and the teachings of this ministry, especially when many begin to teach while they are still trying to figure out what they believe?

I think you can just go ahead and comment the articles you want. And you will be heard. Or you can write your thoughts as the independent piece (doesn’t necessary have to be long) and it can provoke new discussions. 

Thank you for sharing. I too am glad to hear your thoughts, along with Vitaly, Matthew and other new commenters. I am not offended in anyway by your comments. I am thankful to see that you are thinking critically! It is a breath of fresh air for me. ubfriends has been (and hopefully will continue to be) a place where people can speak their minds and receive a response from others who also speak their minds.

In regard to the “bashing”, I would agree with David. The things said here may seem shocking to you and others who just discovered this blog. But if you want to read real bashing, email me and I’ll send you the links (I won’t repost them here).

In regard to publicly speaking on certain topics and comments, I admit a couple of my comments started to cross the line. I am thankful for people like John Y. who then publicly rebuked me (which led to some constructive private conversations!). I believe all this is healthy, but I do understand that it is rather hard to digest for some. But I would say “get used to it”, because there is a lot of underlying angst in UBF. It is not healthy to let such things eat away at your bones.

Some respected Christian teachers have suggested such public discussions for UBF for many years now. Perhaps Scott M. didn’t imagine we’d create ubfriends (and perhaps he doesn’t even agree with some of the approach). But this is a first attempt.

Finally, I want all our readers to remember that some of us have just left UBF. In 2011, doing that can still be a VERY traumatic experience. Publicly speaking about such things helps ease the trauma, although at times I did reveal some specifics (because otherwise I wouldn’t have been truthful). But I and others made much effort to conceal details. My leaving this year was largely a protest, an act of civil disobedience to bring such trauma to light. I hope that no one has to experience such trauma again, and that the pattern of demonizing former UBF members may end. Some former members leave healthy, then they are demonized, and then they actually do develop spiritual problems. Then UBF says, see, they have spiritual problems, just have nothing to do with them!  

Such things are maddening. But ubfriends has helped me keep my sanity. I am so thankful this year that there are Christians who can bear with one another and express themselves honestly and speak against party lines when necessary.

And finally, finally :)  For those who say “it’s just one chapter, not all chapters”. How can one part of the body of Christ say to another part, “I don’t need you?” (read 1 Corinthians 12:1-31). So MUCH suffering happened in UBF in several parts of the world in 2010 and 2011. The senior UBF leaders call the leaving a “crisis”. Do you care? Or do you just believe the self-glorifying reports that “it’s all ok here”? How do we properly deal with this crisis? Should we really deal with the crisis based on 2 Timothy 3:1-17? We really need external help. The more UBF remains a closed group, the more pain we’ll encounter. And just because good things are happening in Chicago (and they are indeed!), doesn’t mean the satellite chapters around the world are affected by it, or ever will be.

Lastly, please understand that I am a man of passion. I will speak with passion. I will act with passion, courage and hope. I am now on a journey of grace– to follow the Holy Spirit’s direction and to dwell in the grace and love of our Lord. May the grace of God be with us all in 2012.

(and p.s. for those who don’t know this: Who was the person getting “bashed” on the old UBF discussion forums? Me. I was the one being bashed for defending UBF publicly. I’ve since reconciled with the “bashers”, for I understand their plight.)

1) I found everyone’s honest sharing and struggles led me to look hard at myself and my spiritual walk. Particularly, I’m realizing more and more that I had become one of those who used my performance in the ministry as a spiritual barometer, which led me to the thinking that personal Bible study, personal time, personal (fill-in-the-blank), was a waste of time because the only thing that matters is the results I’m getting for God. Reading what others have said very honestly, helped me to realize how much my personal struggle is the biggest struggle and the foundation of doing any work for God, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” However, this was clearly a personal problem, not a UBF problem (though as much as I would like to blame UBF, there are too many good examples around me to really pull off such an argument, it was my own immaturity.
2) I, unfortunately, found the name of the site paradoxical. After the first 2 weeks solid of reading, I have to say I had a very bad taste in my mouth. I found–in general–there was a very anti-UBF vibe about this site. I haven’t read every article yet, but I agree with Ray, that there is a lot of UBF-bashing going on, yet done with a lot of spiritual words and politeness.

3) After reading some very sensitive and personal issues, encountered by specific individuals in specific chapters, yet proclaimed to be general problems of our ministry happening in every chapter, I felt, quite honestly ashamed to be part of UBF. I agree that discussion is good but I also had the exact same thought as James Kim, that cyberspace is perhaps not the best place for it. For example, I have a lot of issues with my mother, but no matter how therapeutic it may be, I would never air her dirty laundry online. Therefore I kept wondering if it is, metaphorically speaking, polite or appropriate to hang UBF’s dirty boxers outside for all to see. I tend to agree that nothing will be solved or fixed online and that controversial/serious issues would be better discussed face-to-face (which is much, much harder, takes 100 times more patience and humility/self denial and hence why we [I] run to the internet). 

4) I wondered, along these lines, if I had Bible student who read this site would he stay in UBF? If I felt ashamed of being in UBF given what I read, I think a new Bible student would leave immediately when they read all the problems this church has. Yes, every church has problems, but when you join a church they don’t give you a flier stating them all succinctly as part of your membership packet. I stay because I have hope and faith for the future and I believe strongly that God doesn’t make mistakes; hence, I’m here for a reason. A person without foundation or faith, would not be able to make such a decision. But this is all just my speculation (however, my wife does not want to read, because she’s still growing and trying to find what she believes; therefore, debates of this nature, just make her confused and discouraged). 

5) I find the articles about a Biblical topic, an area of spirituality, or Christian life and the discussion that follows are awesome and really make me think; however, when controversial articles come up, I feel they are too one-sided and sometimes wonder if all the anti-UBF, anti-Korean, revealing extremely personal info about an individual or chapter comments adhere to the above guidelines (one of the first things I also did was read the guidelines after I began reading peoples posts). I agree with what Ray said, that some comments are made generally about UBF that only apply to certain chapters/countries and therefore should be specifically addressed not listed as problems of UBF. I’ve been continually amazed at the progress that’s being made lately in Chicago, which is all the more amazing given the diversity of age and culture, I don’t think many comments being labeled as “this is what is wrong with UBF” meet the guidelines of this site or are correct of every chapter but are clearly major problems with that specific chapter or director etc. which then needs to be dealt with personally with that person, as writing anything about it would be revealing personal information about someone or directly slandering a person without giving them a chance to defend themselves etc. I think the problem with putting discussions of this nature on the internet, is that it doesn’t really show all sides of the argument. We may say, “we hoped they would post here and openly discuss this issue” but if “they” don’t then we continue on a one-sided conversation and say it’s “their” fault for not joining the conversation, which could be construed as gossip. (gossip: “idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others.”)

6) I understand the guideline “Truth and Respect” meaning that the truth without a spin will be revealed in all it’s raw details and that we as adults will be left to make up our own minds/pray/meditate. However, all the really sensational articles on the site are the controversial ones. I used to be (probably still am) an addict of criticism and gossip. I had to struggle a LOT to stop this, but I’ve made very little progress… In general misery loves company and wounded people always wound those around them, and the fastest way to make friends is to complain about someone/something. Since, the sensational articles are ones pointing out the problems of UBF and there aren’t really any articles talking about what is good about UBF…the general vibe I got was very negative. However, that said these are incredibly good and important discussions that need to be discussed, so I’m a little conflicted as to whether it is good to put them on the internet.

All that said, I sound rather strange saying that I like this site despite it all because it’s making me think and reexamine many of the things I’m doing and why I’m doing them and what need to change and what needs to stay. I will actually continue to read this site and probably post (much, much more concisely in the future) and I look forward to what many people have to say and am generally glad we have such a place to congregate and talk about our spiritual walk. I thank God for those of you who are really examining your spiritual life and heritage and digging out the deep answers about what is truly right before God, unflinchingly even if the answers are not always comfortable. I’m really thankful for many such people these days who are looking for the new answer which is relevant to this time and the indigenous culture, such people make me feel there is a bright future for our ministry. Please don’t take my comments to negatively. Forgive my lengthy response I’ve been trying to figure out how and where to say what’s on my mind for 3 weeks…

Thanks for this site and putting up with a chronic criticizer!

As for the site, I haven’t been on it near as much as I’d like,  but overall I appreciate the openness, sincerity, even-handedness and spirit of inquiry on this website.  God bless it to be so in 2012!

Not to make a prophecy or direction or anything, but something like this could really be critical in maintaining a self-awareness of the difficulties Christians face. A lot of other sites are out there for the typical enemies of spiritual growth (ie ministries for people who struggle with sins like gambling, overeating and pornography, or encouraging websites about prayer and spiritual music), but few are interested in the actual inner workings of ministry. I think a lot of people just kind of think that leaders just lead well or not well, without taking into consideration the difficulty of actually participating and leading in a ministry and facing challenges in that arena. Most people turn their noses up at this kind of discussion, but this website has taken some of these issues head on and I appreciate that. I think people in our time are struggling to learn what it would look like for them to participate in Christian ministry because of the type of issues that are discussed here. It needs to be discussed so we can understand the difficulties of growing as a Christian and lead others to make positive decisions so they can have a fruitful relationship with Christ in this life and the next.

As an aside, I am very excited to begin a new program in 2012 called Project 4:4 created by a local church (Mt 4:4).  The whole church will read through the Bible chronologically ~each weekly Sunday message for the whole year will be based on the reading for that week. The kids, high school and adult programs will also be based on the same reading each week. The pastor plans to put a brief mini-message online for each daily reading as well! Our whole family is excited to engage! Praying that we may stay engaged to the end!! 

Merry Christmas to all! 
Immanuel!!
 

One thing I would like to see is a way to ask questions or start topics without writing full articles. For example, recently I’ve been interested in the topic of keeping Saturday as the original Sabbath. I read a fairly long article describing how the Catholic church changed it to Sunday. There are some New Testament verses about the believers meeting on the first day of the week (Sunday) but when looking at them closely I’m not sure we can say that this is grounds for changing the day. Or maybe the day isn’t important. Anyway, there are many issues here (and about other things) I’d like to hear/discuss about but I can’t seem to find time to write formal articles to get things moving.

Another comment I have is that sometimes I feel there is a little too much “UBF bashing”. Surely there are problems that need to be addressed and I think they should be brought up, but sometimes I wish that we could focus more on topics related directly to Scripture. Like any church, the UBF ministry has problems, but because of this ministry many of us were saved and I think that we can all share in the joy of that grace together. Also, some of the problems discussed might be more relevant to some chapters than others and thus can’t really be said to be true of all of UBF as a whole.

On a related topic, because there is such a strong emphasis on UBF topics, it becomes hard to invite “outsiders” to join in our conversations. If we kept some things more open and generally scripture based I think people from different backgrounds would be more willing to join and we could really benefit from their comments.

Blessings and Merry Christmas.
 

When I reflect on 20 years of being in UBF, there are countless things I am thankful for. By God’s grace, I met Christ in a very personal way and began my own pilgrimage toward heaven. I studied Scripture in a way that I haven’t encountered anywhere else. I have made friends for life with many God-loving people. I met and married my soul mate. My life has been blessed beyond measure. There are also events that I would very much like to forget. There are plenty of things for which I would like a do-over. We recently have stepped off the spiritual treadmill that had been our lives. Today, my family and I are attending a local church and are very much enjoying the garden in which God has placed us. Lately, God has been speaking to my heart to engage in the well-established college ministry at this church. I am waiting on God’s leading for this one…

To answer all of the questions you posed Dr. Ben–no, you shouldn’t stop. I pray for all of the other ‘silent’ readers to be encouraged through the honest and open discussions here. I do like the once a week posting idea. It definitely gives time to digest articles. (I confess that some of the more ‘theological’ (for lack of a better term) posts take lots of time for me to fully grasp the meaning.)  I look forward to reading new and interesting articles in the future. 

Merry Christmas and may God have mercy on us all in 2012!

>>> My thoughts are full of thanksgiving for the people who have contributed articles and those who have commented here. I am grateful for Joe and Sharon, and their courage and grace. This blog was born out of their struggle to honor Christ and to remain friends with UBF. I support that vision and see good fruit born out of the open, honest dialogues allowed through this website. ubfriends has become not just a website, but a starting point, a door to facilitate dialogues about taboo topics that have lied dormant for 50 years in UBF. 

Any suggestions for 2012? 

>>> I concur with weekly publishing. Two challenges to this: the need for articles and the resistance to former UBF members. I have many, many articles I want to write and submit (none of which directly address UBF). But often my name on articles or comments drives UBF people away (although it seems to attract the interest of others). My personal suggestion (for myself) is to remember the grace of God. I am re-committing myself to not be divisive and yet not dismiss grace, truth, faith, hope and love. This is my struggle for 2012: to blog and speak with grace. 

How should we continue UBFriends? 

>>> I think we should continue being an “open door” and even a “landing point” for people in/out of UBF. Does it really matter if someone is in UBF or not? No, it doesn’t. I say we should continue flushing out taboo issues, not with an attacking spirit, but with a spirit of grace. I personally am sickened by hearing all the endless praise of UBF activity. If even one UBF director will speak publicly and honestly in 2012, I will be happy. Seriously, is there nothing that needs to be addressed in UBF?

Should we stop? 

>>> No way!

Should we change? 

>>> Yes!

If so how? 

>>> However the Spirit leads us.

Should we leave UBFriends as it is? 

>>> Keep the existing content for sure. Perhaps we could revisit some earlier posts that didn’t get many comments? Perhaps re-publish them in a fresh way?

Should we expand? 

>>> Perhaps. I used to think “expansion is good” and anything negative is bad. But this is not necessarily so. I think we need to keep in step with the Spirit. 

>>> One way I think we must expand is to go beyond UBF. There have been 3 reform movements the past 50 years. SO much has been said. I think it is healthy for all of us to delve into the greater things of God and blog about a wide array of topics. It will be challenging (for me) to avoid coming full circle back to UBF all the time, but I feel that we all need to try not doing that. 

Anything else?

>>> Many thanks to you, Ben! Your summary above matches most of my thoughts. I can assure you that you are NOT insane (a little off the rocker maybe!).  And I want to give a big shoutout to the few women who have posted here. We really need to hear more from you! We simply cannot be fully effective without the voice of women who are not afraid to speak up. Women are normally taught to be submissive and never speak up. I for one say that being submissive to Jesus means speaking up! And I am really glad we have some world-wide readership and contributors. Thank you David B. and the Russians and Ukranians especially!