Comments on: The Myth of Multiplication, Part 1 http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-6733 Wed, 01 May 2013 20:27:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-6733 This post deserves much more discussion, since ubf teaches multiplication as a justification of their performance-based culture.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-4646 Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:06:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-4646 This article was a helpful series to me in our ubfriends discussions. I just want to point out two quick updates.

1. ubf has always approached discipleship with the multiplication-pyramid ideas. It never works. So the leaders in the pyramid end up resorting to severe guilt-tripping or obedience-pushing. Here is a slide from the 2010 ubf training material:
http://www.priestlynation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/102.slide25.jpg

2. Here is proof that the multiplication approach didn’t work. Over 50 years, ubf is about 8,657 members in total worldwide. And I really shouldn’t say “members”. The official member shepherds probably total far less than 1,000. Everyone else is just attending.
http://www.priestlynation.com/archives/1492

]]> By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2475 Tue, 12 Jul 2011 03:04:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2475 dr. bill, just met your daughter in NK. Seems like she’s doing a good job teaching students there!

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2474 Sun, 10 Jul 2011 00:19:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2474 Hi Bill. You must be very proud of Jessica, of her great job in yb and her going to nk.

]]> By: Dr. Bill http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2473 Sat, 09 Jul 2011 19:21:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2473 As I perused this article and comments, it occurred to me that God does think in terms of numbers, but not necessarily the way I might :). For example, God wants “all men to be saved”, which clearly is a numerical statement. :) In another place we read “Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Here we see numbers too, in this case “the full number” (not “all”). So I do not think it is wrong, or somehow unscriptural to think in terms of numbers – clearly God (and we!) want everyone to be saved. If you accept this as the goal, then the question of “how” becomes important – how do we go about evangelizing “all men”. Much discussion in ubfriends has centered on this question from a constructive perspective, which is a good thing.

My 2 cents. :)

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2472 Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:30:52 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2472 Andy, I say AMEN and AMEN to all of that! We really need to explore new ways of delivering sermons. We need radical change. I’ve been studying sermons from my grandparents’ pastor. He is out in a country village in Ohio, but he preaches with such fervor and love for God and for people.

]]> By: andy http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2471 Fri, 08 Jul 2011 03:19:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2471 Hi Brian, I think it was received well overall. Some initial reservations as it does not follow a typical message pattern used in our ministry, but everyone who spoke to me said it was refreshing (obviously going by the people who spoke to me is a pretty biased sample though). I was really glad to give this message as I have observed many people who are in a spiritual desert because we don’t know how to have real intimacy with God (including very much so myself) and I think it’s time to radically change this and go deep in pursuit of a vibrant living heart to heart connection with a God who longs to be with us. I want to live my life out of the power of the presence of the Living God, not out of habit or routine, tossed around by this or that demand. I want to learn to gaze on the beauty of the Lord (Ps 27:4) and live fascinated with this truly utterly fascinating One who by His grace has called us in Christ.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2470 Thu, 07 Jul 2011 17:08:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2470 Andy, I just read your message on Hosea. I was pleasantly surprised and encouraged to see you and your thought process in the message. We need to see more of this kind of preaching. How was it received in Canada?

Truly, we are married to God, and then called to His service in specific contexts, not the other way around.

Oh, and I definitely say “I do!”.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2469 Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:34:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2469 I had not considered disciple-making in light of a multiplication or addition theory, but it is most helpful to consider. Did Jesus intend his disciples to multiply or to add? In one sense, it is a bit confusing, because the word “multiply” exists in Genesis 9:7. I can see though, that the direction to be fruitful and multiply is a different concept altogether. Scripture seems to most often use multiplication in regard to what God does, as in Mark 4:8.

Acts 2:41, Acts 2:47 and Acts 5:14 speaks of people being added to the number of believers. Even this was done by the Lord.

The quote above is so telling: “…if we just follow this multiplication plan, the entire world will be converted to Christianity in thirty years. That was more than thirty years ago.”

If a church wants to follow the multiplication/pyramid approach to making disciples, I think that church will have to become a lot like the Cybermen in Dr. Who!

“Cybermen were originally a wholly organic species of humanoids originating on Earth’s twin planet Mondas that began to implant more and more artificial parts into their bodies as a means of self-preservation. This led to the race becoming coldly logical and calculating, with every emotion all but deleted from their minds.”

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2468 Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:22:12 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2468 Thank you for commenting Emily! I am so happy to hear from articulate Christians such as yourself.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2467 Tue, 05 Jul 2011 00:38:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2467 I agree with Joe that gospel mission must be motivated by love. Evangelism and numerical growth should not be mechanical response to God’s grace. Indeed it is God who has heart desire to call everyone to come to him in repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance”. But the problem is with us when we respond poorly to his mission, not knowing his mind and heart of God. David Bosch said in his book, “Transforming mission” that “Numerical growth is nothing more than a byproduct when the Church is true to its deepest calling. Of greater importance is organic and incarnational growth”

]]> By: Andy Stumpf http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2466 Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:13:27 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2466 I recently spoke on Hosea 2 at a conference in Kingston, and I tried to address a similar theme in the message. If anyone is interested in looking it over and giving feedback, here’s a link to it: http://waterloo-ubf.uwaterloo.ca/?p=507.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2465 Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:49:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2465 Thanks, Joe, for the article. I realize that my mindset as a Christian for several decades has been predominantly mission, multiplication, duplication, and numbers. My inner state of mind as a Christian totally fluctuated like a yo-yo based on the number of those who came (and participated) or didn’t come: to church, conferences, fellowship meetings, weddings, events, number of 1:1 Bible studies carried out, etc. I felt/thought like a businessman, a conquering (or defeated) warrior, or a successful (or failing) CEO of a small company. It was really such an “unhappy Christian life,” which is an oxymoron.

Alan Hirsch, an Australian missiologist, in his book, The Forgotten Ways, speaks of the early church in Acts and why she exploded, and explains why the gospel is expanding in China, Asia, S. America, but not in the U.S., Europe and the “civilized” world. Looking forward to your subsequent articles.

]]> By: Oscar http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2464 Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:57:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2464 Emily, thanks for your comment. I think another thing that’s wrong with duplication, at least as I’ve experienced it, is the notion that my experiences must mirror that of the person who is trying to form or “shepard” me. This “cookie cutter” phenomenom is very stressful, in my experiences anyway. I was constantly made to feel that I had to do such and such this and that way and any deviation from that either wasn’t genuine or good enough. When one focuses so much on one way of duplicating then they become blind to other methods that may be more effective for that particular individual. Also, it doesn’t take into account that God just may not have that thing planned for that particular indivdual. 1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? This method of duplication focuses on just making people teachers, when not everyone is meant to be one.
In all honesty I’ve never fished and taught, so I speak out of ignorace of the experience of actually teaching someone in this way.

]]> By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2463 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:59:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2463 Wise words from Emily. This is one of the reasons why the man=mission idea can lead us astray. If people are for mission — nothing more, nothing less — then why have a relationship with anyone who doesn’t contribute to the mission goal and strategy? Gospel mission must be motivated by love. And the object of real love must be a person, not an idea or cause.

]]> By: Emily Francis http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2462 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:19:47 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2462 Yes, yes, yes.
I have serious problems with pyramid scheme evangelism.

It does not work as even a get-rich-quick scheme. Why would we apply it to our spiritual life and work?

The problem with pyramid scheme evangelism (you raise 12 disciples and they each raise 12 disciples) is the same problem with pyramid schemes. Your success is dependent on the success of the people beneath you. So raising disciples becomes a high-stakes gamble.

Is this person the one? The one who will stay? Who will accept mission? Who will grow? Who will marry? Who will devote their lives to doing this too?

Which eventually becomes…is this person worth this amount of time? I don’t think they will stay. I don’t think they will be bible teachers. This isn’t what they want. And along with this is enormous pressure to find new disciples who will work in your chain of discipleship.

It stops being about teaching people who Christ is, how to love and worship Him with your life, how to love each other. The results can’t be the work. It can’t be in numbers. When God wants the world evangelized, it will be. Is there any spiritual benefit in praying to raise up 120 disciples versus raising up one person to know, love, trust Christ and to live a Christ-centered life each day? One that is full of meaning and joy?

And what if you never raise up a disciple? Do you just not love Christ enough? What if that is not God’s role for you in His great plan? What if you have planted seeds in thousands of people that take root later on in their lives? Is your spiritual life a failure?

While I see the passion and desire to serve God with great numbers, I also see the human thinking behind those kinds of thoughts. If that is how God thinks, it seems to me that Jesus’ ministry would have looked a lot different.

]]> By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2461 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:42:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2461 Hi Oscar. No, I haven’t yet read The Fuel and the Flame. Looking at a few pages on Amazon.com, it seems that this book lies squarely in the tradition of classic (20th century) discipleship literature, rooted in the modernist evangelical missions tradition. Although there is much good in this, there are many faithful Christians from other times and traditions who have viewed missions from very different angles.

The problem with multiplication/duplication is that our world and our culture are now changing at a very rapid pace. One generation may figure out how to contextualize the gospel and raise disciples in a particular time and place. Having some success, they proceed to develop systems, formulas and programs to churn out disciples in the familiar mold. But by the time those systems are in place, the culture has changed and the mold has become obsolete. We really, really need to develop our personal relationships with Christ and learn how to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit afresh in each generation.

But even in earlier times, multiplication/duplication was not the main mechanism by which the church grew. Scripture and ancient church history tell a different story.

]]> By: Oscar http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/06/29/the-myth-of-multiplication-part-1/#comment-2460 Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:19:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=3451#comment-2460 I’m looking forward to this series of articles. Have you ever read “The Fuel and the Flame?” It’s being taught to students in my fellowship. I myself have not read it, but I’ve heard the presentation on it a few times already. One of the main focuses of the book is duplication. However, given that the duplication model isn’t nearly as effective as it used to be, I wonder if a book that stresses duplication isn’t becoming obsolete. I wonder how receptive one who was teaching from “The Fuel and the Flame” would be to alternative methods of evangelism. It always did seem to me that there had to be more to it than just cranking-our disciples, who will in turn crank-out more disciples.

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