Comments on: Divisions in the Church, Part III http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2056 Sun, 08 May 2011 23:41:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2056 I understand what Schaeffer said. But Jesus seems to contradict that in Matthew 5:23-24: “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.”

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2055 Sun, 08 May 2011 22:20:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2055 Hi Dr Ben, thank you for your honest opinion. This is the way I see the problems in the church.
We are living in this world with full of problems. Christian community is not an exception. But certainly we can differentiate Christian community and the other worldly fellowship. Christians are those who received the unconditional love and grace through Jesus Christ. Romans 5:8 says, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”. Our vertical relationship is that we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. I am a precious bride of Christ. And others are same. Based on this vertical relationship, I can truly love and respect other fellow Christians.
Yet, as you said, practically many problems happen even in the Christian community. How can we solve? I believe we should make every effort to obey the word of God and try to struggle before God. As Romans 12:16-18 say, “Live in harmony with one another.—Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible,—live at peace with everyone.”
Notice the word Paul said, “If possible”. That means sometimes it is not possible. Sometimes we do not know the real solution. But God knows everything perfectly and God uses even this situation for his own glory.
Most of the problems and conflicts are not just “our” or “their” problem. Many times both parties (Bible said, “No one is righteous, not even one”) are responsible. If both parties have sincere vertical relationship with Jesus, (remembering God’s saving grace and willing to obey the word of God) it would be much easier to solve many problems horizontally.
If one person committed criminal offense like the priests you mentioned, that is a different story.
I would like to quote Francis Schaeffer’s word, “The individual, and then the group must consciously look to Christ for help, consciously look to the leadership of the Holy Spirit not only theoretically but in reality, consciously understanding that every relationship must first be toward God before it has meaning out toward men. And only after the vertical relationship is established are we ready to have horizontal relationship and a proper Christian community.”
 

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2054 Sun, 08 May 2011 13:11:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2054 Sorry, I’m re-copying my response below, because I didn’t like it that there was no spacing between paragraphs.

Hi Maria, Dr. James. Thanks for responding.

I fully agree that focusing on Christ is the absolute key to Christian life and church life. It is surely the key to love, joy, peace, unity, forgiveness, reconciliation, etc. But the obvious fact is that sin still happens, and problems do happen in life and in the church. Let me illustrate by posing some questions:

If your wife commits adultery (God forbid), does the couple just focus on the good times and the honeymoon, and not address the reasons for the adultery?

If your daughter is taking drugs, do the parents just focus on how cute she was as a baby, and not address her destructive lifestyle?

If people are hurt by the church, and leaving the church, because of leadership issues and doctrinal and teaching issues, do we just focus on Jesus and NOT address the reasons and the causes behind the people that we have hurt and wounded? (Unless we think that the we have not wounded anyone, and that it is always the problem of the people who have left the church, or “gone out to pioneer,” and never the problem with the leadership.)
As an example of recent church abuses, it’s like saying that we should just focus on Jesus and on all the good that a pedophile priest has done in the past, and ignore his predatory sexual sins.

My contention is simply this: It is only because we focus on Jesus and his totally undeserved mercy and grace that we, as mature Christians, should be able to practically address painful and uncomfortable and ongoing issues and problems that we may have “buried” for decades as a church.

I’m not saying this is easy or painless for anyone. But saying, “Just pray,” or “Just trust God,” or even “Just focus on Jesus,” and  NOT addressing the reality that is happening around us, is this biblical? Or is it reductionistic, simplistic, immature, unhealthy, and even “bad Bible study”? The whole Old and New Testament is full of “Christian people” problems in Israel and in the church. The Bible also contains countless practical guidelines for addressing them, some of which I have highlighted, proposed and suggested in my 3 articles.

It’s because a husband truly loves and forgives his adulterous wife, that he is able to humbly and gently address her sin of adultery with love, mercy, grace, forgiveness and with reconciliation in mind.

It is because parents love their drug addicted daughter that they unconditionally love her while attempting to do everything in their power to patiently resolve her drug addiction.

Shouldn’t we begin to do the same as a church?

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2053 Sun, 08 May 2011 13:00:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2053 Hi Maria, Dr. James. Thanks for responding. I fully agree that focusing on Christ is the absolute key to Christian life and church life. It is surely the key to love, joy, peace, unity, forgiveness, reconciliation, etc. But the obvious fact is that sin still happens, and problems do happen in life and in the church. Let me illustrate by posing some questions:
If your wife commits adultery (God forbid), does the couple just focus on the good times and the honeymoon, and not address the reasons for the adultery?
If your daughter is taking drugs, do the parents just focus on how cute she was as a baby, and not address her destructive lifestyle?
If people are hurt by the church, and leaving the church, because of leadership issues and doctrinal and teaching issues, do we just focus on Jesus and NOT address the reasons and the causes behind the people that we have hurt and wounded? (Unless we think that the we have not wounded anyone, and that it is always the problem of the people who have left the church, or “gone out to pioneer,” and never the problem with the leadership.)
As an example of recent church abuses, it’s like saying that we should just focus on Jesus and on all the good that a pedophile priest has done in the past, and ignore his predatory sexual sins.
My contention is simply this: It is only because we focus on Jesus and his totally undeserved mercy and grace that we, as mature Christians, should be able to practically address painful and uncomfortable and ongoing issues and problems that we may have “buried” for decades as a church.
I’m not saying this is easy or painless for anyone. But saying, “Just pray,” or “Just trust God,” or even “Just focus on Jesus,” and  NOT addressing the reality that is happening around us, is this biblical? Or is it reductionistic, simplistic, immature, unhealthy, and even “bad Bible study”? The whole Old and New Testament is full of “Christian people” problems in Israel and in the church. The Bible also contains countless practical guidelines for addressing them, some of which I have highlighted, proposed and suggested in my 3 articles.
It’s because a husband truly loves and forgives his adulterous wife, that he is able to humbly and gently address her sin of adultery with love, mercy, grace, forgiveness and with reconciliation in mind.
It is because parents love their drug addicted daughter that they unconditionally love her while attempting to do everything in their power to patiently resolve her drug addiction.
Shouldn’t we begin to do the same as a church?

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2052 Sun, 08 May 2011 11:04:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2052 Hi Maria. Thanks for the post. I agree with you that we should not focus in our differences. We may think we have a lot of differences among us, but actually we have much much more common things. With vertical relationship with God intact, we can truly have harmonious horizontal relationship with each other.

]]> By: Maria Peace http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2051 Sat, 07 May 2011 21:24:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2051 Mark 9:40, Jesus said, “for whoever is not against us is for us.” It is  interesting that Jesus did not say  “for whoever agrees with us is for us.” I think what Jesus is saying  here is that we can have diversity in unity. We may have different views, or methods or cultural upbringing. As Christians we are forgiven by the blood of Jesus. When we drive out demons in Jesus’ name regardless of what church or denomination we belong to, we are for Jesus. Lets not focus on our differences but as Abraham Nail said, “Let’s focus on Jesus and this will solve alot of our conflicts.”

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2050 Tue, 03 May 2011 13:17:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2050 Thanks, Dr. James for quoting Keller and Carson, whose books have helped me tremendously over the last 3 years to re-evaluate whether or not I have been gospel-centered and Christ-centered and grace-centered and cross-centered.

It is surely absolutely true and marvellous and beautiful and miraculous that, only by the grace of God, we proud sinful humans and natural enemies can be truly united in Christ, in spite of ourselves. We can be united and loving and supportive and gracious toward one another, even when we disagree, and even after we sin against each other, and even when we act and speak and blog and make decisions that may be regarded as political, or self-propagating,  or non-Christian. As you said earlier, loving each other in the church is akin to loving our spouses when (not if) we get into a spat.

But the purpose of my 3 articles on this uncomfortable topic of “divisions in the church” is to begin to address the conflicts and issues that have obviously been happening for quite some time now through out the UBF world, beginning from Korea to Chicago/U.S. to Europe, etc. Denying that we have any interpersonal and authoritarian problems in our church when many people have already been hurt and wounded does not speak well for us as  a church, especially if we keep defending our policies or not addressing the problem.

My major contention is that if we do not begin to address them prayerfully and humbly in honest open respectful communication that is visible and transparent to the whole church, we are not being trinitarian and relational like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and thus not pleasing to God.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2049 Tue, 03 May 2011 10:35:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2049 Tim Keller talked about Christian unity in his book, “King’s Cross”. He said, we are like brothers and sisters, and natural enemies. We cannot be united unless we are bonded with Jesus’ body and blood. These are excerpts from his book.
When you have been raised with brothers and sisters, you share a powerful bond. You have been through everything with them; you have more common experiences with them than with anyone else. Jesus said, “whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:35) As D A Carson said, “What binds Christians together is not common education, common race, common income levels, common politics, common nationality, common accents, common jobs, or anything else of that sort Christians come together—because they have been saved by Jesus Christ—They are a band of natural enemies who love one another for Jesus’ sake. When you take the Lord’s Supper, you are doing it with brothers and sisters, with family. This bond is so life-transforming that it creates a basis for unity as strong as if people had been raised together.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2048 Mon, 02 May 2011 21:34:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2048 Thanks, MJ. For sure, empowering others, trusting others, entrusting to others, and  trusting God is the way Jesus mentored and discipled his “sheep.”

Regarding hierarchy, there is surely leadership in the church. But the purpose of leadership is to preach the gospel, not lord it over others, and to “wash the stinky feet of others” (John 13:14-15). Probably, Jesus won’t mind if you hold your breadth while doing so! But do smile while holding your breadth :)

Yeah, acting as though the church (and the “sheep”) belongs to the leader or to the pastor, is something I am still trying to analyze and figure out, so that I might be able to articulate it in an understandable way. I’m not there yet. Maybe, you can help me out.

]]> By: mjpeace http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2047 Sun, 01 May 2011 15:45:40 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2047 I completely agree with the point that conflicts arise from a feeling of inequality. God created every human being in his image with the command to rule the earth. When a person feels that someone else is ruling him, naturally he will rebel and fight. But when a man has his place in ministry, his specific vine yard; he is happy. Sitting in a meeting for hours is torture.
Jesus’ method of raising disciples is perfect. He called his disciples his friends. He edified others. He gave his disciples the bread to pass out to the 5000. This is what people need, to be valued and to have their part. This is applicable in every sphere of life like education. Teachers need to raise peer leaders who care about fellow classmates because it is impossible for the single teacher to reach the needs of every student. There should not be a hierarchy, but because of sinful nature there often is. Communication is such a difficult solution, especially if you are younger. In some cases I doubt its efficiency. But actions speak louder than words.
Jesus was the quintessential disciple raiser and he was with his disciple only 3 years. A leader in the church shouldn’t try to control the church, its good to church plant, let the church grow on its own once its reached a level of maturity. The church doesn’t belong to the pastor. Problems come when church leaders feel that the church belongs to them and it must go the way they want; they don’t want to share or give a say to others. Then those who feel subordinate raise conflicts and it just becomes one big mess.
Jesus was completely selfless; he gave his very blood for others. Leaders must be like this and do whatever is in their power to raise those around them to be leaders too.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2046 Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:12:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2046 Thanks, Abraham, for your thoughtful, reflective and useful comments. For sure, one needs an objective outsider to “see” what a long standing insider is not able to see, because “A fish swimming in dirty water all his life, has no idea that the water is dirty.” To the fish, the dirty water is normal, or even clean.
 
Also, for sure, our focus determines our practical church practice: ministry growth, reputation, order & beauty, saving souls, and as you emphasized loving God, loving one’s neighbor. As I suggested in #6, I think that learning to focus on indicatives/God/Jesus/gospel/what God has done helps us to find all of our agonies, conflicts, resolutions in God, rather than imperatives/commands/what man must do, which puts “pressure,” often unnecessarily or excessively, on people until they feel burdened or crushed, oppressed and constricted. I blogged on this 2 years ago: http://benjamintoh.posterous.com/the-imperatives-are-based-on-the-indicatives

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2045 Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:54:05 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2045 Thanks, Alan. Perhaps, this might be your first comment. Welcome! I do love the points you raised:

conflict between Christians and “attacking” other Christians or churches   is horrible and it surely grieves God,
being in Christ enables us Christians to transcend our differences and grow in the love of God and in understanding others,
God blessing our ministry despite our impure motives (Phil 1:18),
focusing on loving God and loving our neighbor (Matt 22:37-40),
becoming like the one we hate, likely without realizing it (Moby Dick), and
being an offender of what I myself hate in myself.

I hope I have correctly understood correctly tabulated the great points you mentioned. Surely, without the marvelous grace of Jesus, we’re all screwed…oops, sorry, I mean we’re all in big trouble, especially yours truly!

]]> By: alan http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2044 Wed, 27 Apr 2011 01:43:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2044 I agree with all of the constructive criticism that Dr. Ben offered as well as his Biblical suggestions for resolution.
I come at this from a somewhat different perspective. I was raised as an atheist and at that time I thought it was pretty funny that there was fighting within and among churches. Since I’ve become a Christian it is not lost on me that one reason why Christianity lost influence in Europe, for example, is the conflict between Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians that took place for centuries.
Even though I’ve been trying to serve God in UBF for more than 30 years, I mainly regard myself as one who belongs to Christ and his larger body. Thus, while I do my best where God put me, I don’t feel particularly compelled to defend (or attack) any particular church or denomination. I think things like nationalism, the organization one is in, ethnicity, culture and like can cause divisions. But from God’s point of view that is all good if we confess Christ because these are opportunities to learn the deeper love of God which transcends all human barriers. And the Holy Spirit helps us. We don’t have to all be the same; the one thing that binds us together is Christ and his love through the Spirit. My wife was born in Korea and she is very different from me. This has caused my married life to be very “interesting” at times. I’ve learned a lot about how sinful I am and how much more I need to grow. But more than anything, it has been a great opportunity to grow in the infinite love of God which is greater than my sin and narrow mindedness. And I have grown to love my wife dearly.
I admire how Paul was very broadminded with some who even caused him trouble. He said, “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”(Phil 1:18) I know that some sincere Christians don’t even realize they are making some mistakes or being insensitive, but I am thankful that God is using them anyway. God is doing his own work through weak and sinful people and for that I will rejoice. And probably along the way I’ll try to prayerfully, respectfully and graciously help the people who I think are erring. At the same time, when someone makes a really big mistake/sin, I want to speak the truth to them in love and pray that God will work in their heart to repent to accept it.
I think that God wants us focused on Christ and carrying out his will- sharing the gospel, showing his grace and truth to the world in our daily interactions, and loving one another. I think that all of those things can be done in many different ways and God can use them all creatively. Then He is working through us. Once we get focused on people and organizations, then various unsolvable problems come to the fore. There is a danger, as was pointed out with the Puritans of old in the novel Moby Dick- we can become like captain Ahab trying to kill the evil whale but unwittingly becoming like the monster we are trying to eliminate. There are always some unsolvable problems, much like Paul’s thorn in the flesh, but through them God wants us to learn his grace in a deeper way so that we can grow to be more like Jesus.
Thanks for reading my comment. I feel very unworthy to be saying anything about this since I am the biggest offender in many of these areas: my empty boasts, various kinds of pretense, and sharp criticism of others are not things I am happy about. But I believe that Christ has forgiven me for those things and I ask those of you who know me to forgive me for them too.  

]]> By: Abraham Nial http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2043 Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:59:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2043 Conclusion: Let us focus on loving Jesus and it will solve divisions in the families,  churches, ministries, denomination, nations, communities and even in the Holy Universal Church.

]]> By: Abraham Nial http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2042 Tue, 26 Apr 2011 04:49:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2042 Hi Dr Ben, thanks for the three part series. My wife tells me not to comment so often on UBFriends, not because she does not like UBFriends, but she thinks that because we left UBF (or so to say caused division) my opinions could be biased against UBF or its leadership. However, my conscience is clear and I had a hard time while taking the call and it was not me but God who caused the division (if any). When I read your three part series, I was reminded that the problems are real and need to be resolved for a church or ministry to experience health and growth. A lot has been talked about the nature of problems and the measures we can take. However, I felt that we are looking at the symptoms and not the cause itself. To me the root of the problems is very very subtle and often requires an outsider to show us in love.
I think the root problem is <b>focus</b>. We love that which we focus. If we focus ministry growth we love number. If we focus reputation we love visibility. If we focus order and beauty we love methods. If we focus souls being saved we love people. <b>Who or what is our focus?</b> Is it ministry? Is it people? Is it God? I think Jesus made it very clear when he replied to the question of an expert lawyer regarding what is the greatest commandment? Jesus replied, “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.  And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” Jesus said that loving God is the first and the greatest commandment. It is first, because it is the first and foremost thing in God’s mind, and it makes God happy. It is the greatest because it is the ultimate source of our happiness. Yes, Jesus talked about loving people (neighbor), but although it is way above all other commandments it is still after the first and the greatest one. We cannot love ministry, reputation, methods or even souls being saved more than our love for God. Even I cannot love my wife more than I ought to love God. When we violate this, we end up doing all things that cause instability, unrest and division in the church. I know this challenges the way we normally define <b>success</b>. I am not successful when my ministry is big, or when I have more impact on peoples’ lives or when I have many positions. But I am already successful because I love God as a response to His love for me. “He loves me. I love Him. I love Him. He loves me.” That is the definition of success for a Christian. We don’t attain the perfection in this commandment but what God wants is our heart set on this commandment. There is a difference between immaturity and rebellion and the good news is that God loves the immature.
Just to receive more of God’s love and respond in love to Him, I would suggest two things. First is to know Him better. I must keep on going deeper into the knowledge of God through deeper understanding of His truth. It is not enough to be satisfied with yesteryear’s understanding. I need to keep on updating myself. As a principle, God reveals Himself to me with the proportion of my thirst for Him. Most UBF chapters where I participated a Bible study or listened a Sunday message function at a superficial level of the knowledge of God. I am not saying that there is no truth, but truth can be deep as well as shallow. Shallow truths present a low view of God and set us free from shallow problems, deeper truth present a higher view of God and set us free deeper and subtle problems. Deeper truth helps us grow to be true worshippers. Except for a few well known Bible passages we (including myself) have no idea about what the majority of the rest of Bible talk about. When Jesus presented a deeper level of truth to the Samaritan woman, she became a true worshipper. What is more, when she tasted God’s love and began to love Him, she even began to fulfill the second greatest commandment without Jesus telling her to be a witness or to love her townspeople.
A second suggestion is to involve and seek the help of the Holy Spirit. Whether love for God or for people or for myself, I need the help of the Holy Spirit, because love is a fruit of His in dwelling in me. But I have experienced firsthand some UBF leaders opposed the idea and the gifts and the fruit of the Holy Spirit although we mention the Holy Spirit a lot. The Holy Spirit is given to us to sanctify us and to prepare us to be equally yoked Bride of Jesus Christ (Rev 22:17). People ask what does Jesus look like? My answer is Jesus looks like a man or a woman under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. What I mean is under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, we begin to love the Father as Jesus loved and love people as Jesus loved and do that we see the Father’s doing instead of doing what we feel like or what a method or system tells us to do. If we live under the anointing of the Holy Spirit we too will cause some divisions just as Jesus did. Sorry for the lengthy comment. May God prosper us in love.

]]> By: James Kim http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2041 Tue, 26 Apr 2011 01:16:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2041 Thanks Dr Ben for wonderful article. I agree with you in many areas. Recently I read a book by Francis Schaeffer, “The Church at the end of the 20th century” He talked about Christian community from his own experiences and from the biblical principle. He said, “The Christian community is made up of those whom the Good Shepherd knows by name as his sheep; those who are in relationship with God, who stand in a living way as a branch to the vine, the bride to the bridegroom, those who have come to the living God through the work of Jesus Christ as he died upon the cross”
Christian community is very precious. We Christians have vertical relationship with God. I am created in the image of God. And others were also created in the image of God. I am bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and I am his precious bride. And others are same. Based on this vertical (God) and horizontal (others) relationship I recognize myself as precious child of God (instead of despising myself) and I also see my brothers and sisters with eyes of God, and love and respect others.(Phil 2:3b)
The same is true with the relationship between husband and wife. Two very different people with different upbringing, different backgrounds and education meet together and establish a family. Because of these differences, it is inevitable to have miscommunication and conflicts even between gentle husband and lovely wife. How do we solve the conflicts? They pray together instead of fighting and claiming self-righteousness. Even if you see obvious weaknesses of your partner, you don’t want to expose your partners’ faults, mistakes and weaknesses publicly to shame him or her. Rather one tries to protect him or her with unconditional love.
I believe the same is true with Christian community. The visible churches are consisted of so many different kinds of people with different upbringing, education, culture, you name it. Therefore it is inevitable to have all kinds of misunderstandings, conflicts, even quarrels. However, there are common factors. We are all created in the image of God and we are all precious bride of Christ. Because of this we can love and respect others even though there are so many differences and imperfection. I think this is main difference between Christian community and other secular organization.
One of my deepest thanksgiving prayer topics to God is that he called me to live among many wonderful brothers and sisters in the Christian community. I cannot exchange this precious blessing with any other things in this world.
.

]]> By: David Bychkov http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2040 Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:31:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2040 Very interesting question Joe. I used to think that I have to be critical toward outward people and toward sheep because of discipling, and to be very merciful toward leaders because of humbleness and spiritual order. Then once I realized that this is really double standart thinking. But recently I found that I began to be   merciful toward sheep and outside people and (inside) critical toward leaders. But I came to wustion may be this is also some double standarts? So I am full of doubts. Glory to God, that our behavior is not really always supported by logical and coherent chains, but sometimes we just feel – this is right, and that is really wrong.
 

]]> By: John Y http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2039 Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:34:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2039 These principles are also helpful for resolving conflicts in marriage. :)

]]> By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/04/25/divisions-in-the-church-part-iii/#comment-2038 Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:28:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=2869#comment-2038 Ben, thank you for writing this series of articles. I agree that communication (honest, open  dialogue) is  an indispensible ingredient for healthy interpersonal relationships and conflict resolution. And it is important to realize that, just because you are having a meeting with other people in your church, that doesn’t mean that people are communicating.

Church life is full of meetings: business meetings, prayer meetings, fellowship meetings, Bible studies, etc.   Many words are spoken at these meetings. But  the words being spoken are often  of a very limited  scope and fail to reveal what people are truly thinking and feeling.  Because of the way that the group dynamics work  in our ministry, it is often the case that the senior people (usually the oldest males) say a lot, and others tend to be quiet. There is an unspoken but very real box that limits the discussion to certain topics that are considered acceptable, and stepping outside that box results in disapproving glances, silence, rebuke, etc. After the meeting, the senior people may think, “My, my, that meeting went well!” because they  felt free to say whatever they wanted, but  others weren’t  free at all.  The communication that took place was unidirectional and unilateral. The leader doesn’t see the problem, because he ran the show, and it went pretty much the way he wanted. From his perspective, everything is wonderful. Unless  the leader is able to empathize and see what is happening from the perspective of others, he literally has no idea how poor the communication has become.

Speaking for myself, I have run many meetings where I have unwittingly stifled communication, cut people off, belittled them, made them feel stupid, failed to listen, never made them comfortable enough to open up and say what is on their minds. I am sorry about this. It is something that I need to work on.

And I have attended many meetings where the person who  is leading  the meeting has stifled communication.  He may  think he is doing a great job, showing godly leadership, etc.  when he is merely acting like a bully. When this happens in a group setting, I feel terrible and want to do something about it. If the person leading the meeting  is acting like a bully, what should I do? Some would say, “Wait until after the meeting and then tell him privately.” But if I wait until after the meeting, the damage has been done. If boorish behavior is happening in a group setting, shouldn’t that behavior  sometimes be  challenged in the same group setting? Helping a leader to save face should not always take precedence over everything else. I don’t think that saving face is the supreme value that must be upheld at all costs.

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