Comments on: The Sower (Part 3)

By: Ben Toh

Ben Toh — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:58:27 +0000

Great of hear of Joshua taking a one year sabbatical, and of Andy taking stewardship of Waterloo UBF. By God’s grace, this may be prayerfully done more and more to truly empower the next generation of leaders, and to allow for indigenous leadership to spawn and multiply.

Not to promote any controversy, but perhaps a simplified distinction or difference may be spelled out as such:

Catholic position is Faith + Works = Salvation.

Protestant position is Faith = Salvation + Works.

Though I would align and incline toward the Protestant position, I would not think it necessary to “fight” over this just because of the order of where Works is placed in the equation above.

Also, it is likely true that even though some Protestants claim the Faith alone position, they practically function as though Works must precede salvation.

Thus, no fighting is necessary, safe to preach Christ crucified with the utmost of joy, awe and gratitude.

By: Brian Karcher

Brian Karcher — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:39:19 +0000

Just want to give a shout-out to our friend Andy and all of Waterloo ubf! I think this series is excellent, but it was published during a time when I was in the middle of intense "battle" against ubf people after raising just a few questions about the ministry. So I'd like to re-read this series and perhaps share some thoughts. I think it is worth stating publicly that I would consider Waterloo ubf another example (like Westloop) of how ubf could become a viable ministry again. I know Joshua and I am excited to learn he is taking a 1 year sabbatical, letting Andy's family become pastor and establishing new leadership paradigms. This is awesome! Waterloo report And by the way, Waterloo is the only chapter (that I know of) with the guts to link to ubfriends :)

By: Meredith Ovenden

Meredith Ovenden — Thu, 05 May 2011 16:50:51 +0000

Ohhh a hearing cat. of course.

By: Admin

Admin — Thu, 05 May 2011 16:25:51 +0000

The subtitle of this article was “How is your hearing?” and the cat seems to be listening.

By: Meredith Ovenden

Meredith Ovenden — Thu, 05 May 2011 16:11:29 +0000

Andy – I haven’t read this yet, but I appreciate the picture of the cat! Don’t know yet why it’s there :)

By: GerardoR

GerardoR — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 01:51:11 +0000

You description is very much in line with traditional reformer theology. DavidL posted a video a while back that summarizes that position quite well. By the way you just characterized it, you are not being inconsistent at all. Your internal logic is quite clear to me now.

Ofcourse, as a non reformer, I look at the parable of the sower as straight forward evidence of a faith + works view so your view is in conflict with my own view. But that just might be my bias for seeing everything from my own world views’ perspective and trying to reconcile scripture with what I feel comfortable with.

There is actually an interesting social psychological theory about this called motivated reasoning. It says that we essential find it difficult to retrieve certain memories that go against our particular motivation. Not because we are consciously trying to ignore counter reasoning, but because on an implicit level, our psyche maintains information and memories that are relevant to our motivation in a much higher state of activation which makes it easier for retrieval. And then, things that are easier to retrieve are usually liked better.
I have actually been accused by liberal catholics of being too orthodox and Loving the Church to the point that it blinds me from seeing the many ways it is wrong.

By: Andy

Andy — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:25:04 +0000

Maybe. But is your characterization of what I’m doing the same as saying that:

(1) We are justified by faith alone
and
(2) True faith produces works and is not found without them?

If it is, then I’m okay with your characterization. In my own mind, I’m not doing anything inconsistent. But the way you worded it, it sounds inconsistent. Do you think (1) and (2) are inconsistent? Should either of Catholics or Protestants think they are inconsistent?

By: GerardoR

GerardoR — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:27:54 +0000

Makes sense Andy. But I hear you doing two things.
#1 You are inadvertently defending the Catholic/orthodox view of Faith + Works using scripture
and then
#2 Saying you like faith alone and try to defend faith alone using another set of passages

As you have said before, this struggle can be good. I will leave my opinion out of this because I think this thread is very interesting and I dont want to derail it with another Gerardo vs. David debate. =) We have had enough of those.

By: Andy

Andy — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:26:36 +0000

I guess I’ll start this reply by saying that I consider myself only a budding theologian, and so am very interested in just getting feedback from people who think this stuff is as important as I do on the topics under discussion.

Beyond that, I would say that the Scriptures I have cited in this post and also in the previous discussion (to which there is a link at the beginning of this post) need to be dealt with if we are serious that Christ rules the church through the Scripture (rather than the works of any particular theologian, even Calvin). The way I’ve put things is my effort to make sense of these Scriptures, and if that has echoes with how other Christian traditions see things, all the better.

The only worry, I guess, would be that “salvation by faith alone” is being denied. But I don’t think I am denying that. I’m just going along with James a bit (and by the way I don’t see James as doing much more than Jesus does in Matthew’s gospel), and asking, “So you have faith without any works? Cool, what does that look like? Let’s take an example – you see a brother shivering in the cold and you’ve got an extra coat at home, but you say, ‘Hey Buddy, God bless you and keep you warm; hope you don’t freeze!’ and then leave him alone. In other words, your faith in the God of love, the God who laid down his life for us and commanded us to love each other as he loved us, doesn’t move you to do anything about it. What kind of faith do you have then? You believe in that God? Tell me more….”

I love “salvation by faith alone” because I think that what God really cares about from His children is that they trust in Him and acknowledge that He is everything to them, and all their good gifts and works are only from Him and apart from Him they can do nothing. Works apart from such an attitude would be of very little or even negative value (filthy rags). But if I have faith in this God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ, whose will is that we be conformed to the likeness of His Son, and yet don’t strive to do His will, what is the meaning of my assertion that I have faith in Him? If it doesn’t change my life, what is it doing? Isn’t it basically dead?

For another Scriptural look at these themes, take Ephesians 2:8-10, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€”and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€” not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” I find it interesting that Paul, right after emphasizing that salvation is by grace, through faith and this is the gift of God, turns around and reminds us that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works! Not that we are saved by these works, but saving faith doesn’t exist without them.

Am I going to far here? Does this make sense to everyone? I’m not trying to say that what I’m saying is definitive by any stretch, but where else can we go with these Scriptures?

By: GerardoR

GerardoR — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 20:31:59 +0000

Hi Andy,
Your paragraph about works of righteousness is quite interesting. You start by honestly acknowledging that the parable seems to support that the idea that we must be sown (have faith) and produce fruit (good works). You then give further evidence from James and Paul. Finally, you say that it seems that those who truly hear the word are those who accept and bear fruit. You consider this and state that obedience (or fruit producing) is also a gift from God. Is this correct? If so, you are essentially describing the Catholic, eastern orthodox (and I think Anglican) position of salvation. Both faith and works are necessary but they are both gifts of God (Grace Alone).

The lack of understanding and the swiftness of the gospel is a reoccurring pattern in Mark.