Comments on: Word, Spirit, Gospel and Mission (Part 2) http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Joe Schafer http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-8886 Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:07:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-8886 Andrew, I believe that ubf absolutely needs to think about how the early church clarified its understanding of circumcision and law in light of the gospel.

The central question — what does one actually have to do in order to become one of God’s people? — was the driving force behind Paul’s letters to Galatians, Romans and Ephesians. It is a dominant theme in the New Testament. If the apostles had not decided this issue correctly, then the gospel could not have spread to the Gentile world as it did.

Requiring people to be circumcised to join the church was wrong. It was more than just a bad practice. It was a fundamental denial of the gospel. That’s why Paul opposed it so passionately.

It is my view that many of the practices that ubf leaders have traditionally imposed upon members are unnecessary and damaging to the gospel witness. These practices may have been helpful for some at certain times, just as circumcision was good for some at certain times. But to claim them as principles that should always be followed as the secret to success — as ubf leaders have often done — is foolhardy and wrong. Unfortunately, it seems to me that some ubf leaders love those practices and heritage more than they love Jesus and the gospel. (They may even think those practices *are* the gospel.)

A couple of years ago, I was asked to prepare some Bible study material for the North American senior staff on Acts chapter 15, so that we could discuss these questions openly. But a few weeks before the meeting was to take place, the plan was nixed.

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By: andrew http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-8877 Thu, 27 Jun 2013 04:04:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-8877 great question. From a jewish perspective i would have advocated circumcision, but from a gentile view i would not. Could you say the same thing about how missionaries view “ubf spiritual legacy/heritage” vs say a ‘second gen’ or native shep?

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By: Henoch http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1238 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:09:20 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1238 All right. I will be looking forward then! :)

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1237 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:56:01 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1237 Hi Henoch. You are anticipating some of the questions that are coming. This series of articles is not finished yet. There  are many  surprises to come

I think that every story in the Bible is a particular one, and a one-to-one correspondence with any situation that we face today should never be assumed. That’s why it is unwise, for example,  to read what Paul says about women being silent in church and automatically assume that this is a law or principle that must be applied today.  Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t. That needs to be considered very carefully. I will say more about this in the upcoming articles.

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By: Henoch http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1236 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:39:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1236 Joe, i love your thought-provoking questions.

If i had been Jew back then who had studied OT scriptures extensively and who was then converted to Christianity i would have probably opposed the decision of the Jerusalem Council. The decision of the Jerusalem council is so radical and so drastically counter-cultural to Jewish customs that i probably wouldn’t have been able to bear the stretch.  So, thank God, that i wasn’t there back then. :)

My question is though: can the situation at the Jerusalem Council be applied to us one-to-one? I cheated and i peeked. :) The Jerusalem Council explicitly mentioned that it pleased the Holy Spirit not to burden Gentile Christians with mosaic laws, which made the mosaic covenant obsolete and irrelevant for Gentiles. It is the same Holy Spirit who not too long after these events inspired all the NT authors to write and finish the rest of the bible. To me it seems that their situation was a particular one that one should be careful with comparisons to our situation…

(by which i don’t want to say that this passage doesn’t teach great principles concerning the Holy Spirit.)

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By: david bychkov http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1235 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:22:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1235 yes, sure. sorry and thanks for correction.

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By: Admin http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1234 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:11:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1234 At first I  was confused by David Bychkov’s comment.    When he says “low” I believe he means “law.”

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By: david bychkov http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1233 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:50:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1233 And even now, when we do have whole Bible, it is not really easy to resalve this questions about low. If so why do we have so many groups who are holding the lows – even circumsicion and even rules of food, not to say about different things like – head-dresses, skirts, baptism with full submersion and so on (I don’t wont to offend anyone here). And even many christians who are not doing this still do not really know what is the purpose of the low. it still confusing for them.

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1232 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:13:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1232 One more thought. The temple was the place that sacrifices were offered. The tearing of the curtain on Good Friday signified, among other things, that the period of bloody animal sacrifice was over. But the sacrifices persisted for another  15 years or so after the council until the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.  After the  resurrection of Jesus, his  followers spent considerable time at the temple. They participated in public prayer and worship there. They may have even persisted in acrifices and offerings, as Paul himself did  according to  Acts 21:26.

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By: Joe http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1231 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:03:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1231 David, thanks for your reflection. Those words of Paul  from Galatians 5:6 may have been penned  before or  after the Jerusalem Council. But even if they had been known at that time, it is not given that they would be regarded as authoritative. Paul was a main party to the dispute; the whole purpose of the Jerusalem Council was to decide whether Paul’s view was correct.

I’d wager  that Jesus’ words from Matthew 5:17 were a major  issue of discussion at the council. Those words, “I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” aren’t  so easy to interpret. Couldn’t they be taken to mean that followers of Jesus should not disregard the law but obey the law from their hearts as Jesus did?

As you point out: With 2000 years of Christian history behind us, it’s so easy to underestimate how truly difficult it was — and how truly difficult it still is — to understand  many of the  basic teachings of Jesus. When we read the Bible, we do so through the lenses of modern evangelicalism. It’s easy to fool ourselves into thinking we are reading the Bible plainly and simply, interpreting  everything just as it is and coming to the right answer all by ourselves. None of us can do that.  In our struggle to see and understand Jesus, we all must stand on the shoulders of giants, beginning with the personal knoweldge and witness of the apostles.

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By: Joshua Yoon http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1230 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:58:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1230 According to Joe’s instruction, I was not to  peek at Acts 15 and further chapters. But our chapter are in the middle of Acts studies and covered up to chap 23. So I will try to put aside the recent learnings and think from the persective of Jerusalem council. If I  were a traditional Jew who upholds the Mosaic laws and  the value of  circumcision (in a physical sense), I would be on the side of  those who would be  resist  to welcome the Gentiles Christians  as brothers and sisters in Christ unless they are circumcised. Circumcision  had been  pivotal to their identity as God’s covenant people for thousands of years. Including the “uncircumcised” in their genealogy was unthinkable to most Jews. Breaking away from the custom and traditon built just over a few decades is not easy. When the gospel travels across the culture and ethnicity, the recepients do not just receive the gospel alone, but usually the culture and practices and traditions of the deliverers. In retrospect to quater century missionary life in North America, I acknowledge myself not so different from the traditional Jews. It was only until a few years ago that I had no keen sense of the way I had served the ministry. I am reminded of one incident which shows a slice of the ways we missionaries treated North Americans whom we tried to help to grow as disciples of Jesus. One student seemed to be growing well. At one regional conference, this person had a long hair which was pretty atypical among UBF  members and missionaries. He was supposed to deliver an evening message. Then senior leaders advised him to cut his long hair before delivering the message  as an expresstion to obey  God and decision to be an inlfuential leader. He accepted the advice and had his long hair cut. Many leaders including myself rejoinced at his decision of “faith”. No one objected it. It was celebrated. Later this person had some struggles and left the ministry. I don’t know how this involuntary haircut incident  affected his identity or commitment within the UBF which bears its own ministry culture mixed with Korean culture. This is only one example.  I wonder if it was necessay to help this person to change his hairstyle to learn obedience to God. It took  more than 20 years to begin to acknowledge the serious impact of my own culture and the ministry’s culture and practices on the gospel ministry among North Americans. The longer in the ministry or in the ethnic community, the harder to lay down our own culture and tradtions. It is pretty understandable why the Jews resisted the obvious work of God among the Gentiles and opposed Paul. Unless their hearts and eyes were opened by the work of the Holy Spirit, it  was not easy to break a long history of valuing Moses’ laws and circumcision and their pride grounded in their faithful observance of “God’s will.” It would be the same with any church or group. UBF is not exceptional.

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By: David L http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1229 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 04:25:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1229 I am assuming that many of them were actually there when Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount…

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By: Oscar http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1228 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 04:15:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1228 I have no clue, good head-scratcher though. David L, you said that they had the words of Jesus, but how do we know they have specifically Matt 5:17? What if they had just heard Mark’s version or Luke’s version? Is there a comparable passage in the other gospels? I did a quick run though of the gospels and didn’t see anything (I said quick so I probably did miss it if it’s there). I’m sure it was hard for the Jews to hear that they didn’t have to be so rigid about a code their people had had to follow for the past thousand (or two?) years or so.

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By: David L http://www.ubfriends.org/2011/02/13/word-spirit-gospel-and-mission-part-2/#comment-1227 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:24:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=1886#comment-1227 The disciples could not consult the Old Covenant on this unique New Covenant situation…but they still had the teaching of Jesus to guide them. Jesus said in Matt 5:17, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” And Paul later said, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

So since Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses in himself and when he died the Temple curtain tore in two, I would hope that had I been at the Council, I would have seen this to mean that all could come to him without becoming Jews first…but thats easy to say two thousand years after the fact!

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